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Subject: F-35 vs. Eurofighter
IAFbestinworld    8/13/2004 11:49:07 PM
Lockheed says that besides the f-22, the f-35 will be the best air to air fighter in the future, is this true? Could an f-35 take a Eurofighter? My opinion says yes since f-35 contains more stealthy characteristics.
 
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USN-MID    RE:SH Agility   8/21/2004 4:01:55 PM
To clear up misconceptions: The SH has a massively larger maneuvering envelope...the sustained maneuver portion of dogfighting. No other aircraft has matched its controllable AoA performance so far: +180/-180 degrees AoA. However, being heavier, it does not have quite as nice a roll rate as the Hornet C. However, it can roll in situations where other aircraft could not, turn at speeds other aircraft could not. That's its primary advantage. A freaking HUGE maneuvering envelope.
 
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french stratege    ex-98   8/21/2004 4:21:18 PM
Could you explain? This hearing from defense comitee of Australian parlement is pretty consistent with my informations.As my info is either French written or confidential, this article seems to be a good summary for Englsih speakers.
 
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displacedjim    RE:A good report and the best summary to end endless discussions   8/21/2004 4:29:18 PM
"BBWAAAHAAAA oh dear lord I nearly fell off my chair laughing. Wait till the Aussies see this! ..Stratege is using a Carlos Kopp article as the basis for his understnading about the JSF...too classi" French Strategist, thanks for the link. I read most of it, especially the Australian Aviation articles. I don't have the history here (started reading about Feb 04, I think), or else I'm too dense to remember, so I don't appreciate the irony. However, I do now recognize the source for many an ElCid post. Who is Carlo Kopp? He and ElCid share a fond propensity for considering the extreme worst case of every issue. A useful data point, but often not the one to base a final decision on. I note that Kopp goes to great lengths to post every conceivable combination of radar/IR/passive detection and weapon engagement range v. target signature/performance, except one: I couldn't find anywhere in there a striaght up display of F-35 radar missile engagement range against a Su-30, with maybe a side-by-side of an Su-30 radar missile engagement range of an F-35. Why not? Because the results would blow away the argument about Su-30 threat to F-35. Using his own numbers and one reasonable guess, I figure the following: He shows N011M detection of an F-35 at under 25NM. Of course, lock-on would be a bit less than that, so the Su-30 could engage an F-35 at around 20NM. Given a very safe bet that the F-35 radar is at least as good as the N011M, and the Su-30 RCS is at least 10m2, the F-35 can detect the Su-30 at 130NM! Gee, do you think he might manuever around and totally avoid the engagement, or else come in on the Sukhoi's 3 or 9, wait to lock him up somewhere around 30-50NM, and pump an AMRAAM into it? So much for the hypothetical follow-on IRST detecting the F-35 at some unknown but hypothetically greater range than the current IRST's less than 10NM range. I understand there are other considerations, like self-protection jamming (which Kopp did not discuss, either) on both aircraft, but I wonder why Kopp didn't show that comparison? Displacedjim
 
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ex-98C    RE:ex-98 - Explanation   8/21/2004 11:09:53 PM
I ghost an Australian site that some of the members here also post to. Kopp is often at the center of discussion, almost universally reviled. His positions (such as upgrading the F-111 and purchasing F-22s) and the media and government attention he gets causes much gnashing of teeth. If you want more details talk to GF or look yourself the site is called "The Basement"
 
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boris the romanian    RE:A good report and the best summary to end endless discussions   8/21/2004 11:50:24 PM
"and the Su-30 RCS is at least 10m2, the F-35 can detect the Su-30 at 130NM" According to my source, the RCS of the Su-27M is around 3m2. "Given a very safe bet that the F-35 radar is at least as good as the N011M" The software probably is a bit better, but I have my doubts about the resolution and aperture. "IRST detecting the F-35 at some unknown but hypothetically greater range than the current IRST's less than 10NM range" IIRC, A PVO Su-27 (T-10S) managed to track an L-29 at a range of 50km in 1988. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the IRST, especially as the Russians are very experienced in these types of systems. N-011M+R-77/M/R-77PD/PDT will give the Su-30 series aircraft a chance against the F-35. It won't render the F-35 a sitting duck, but it certainly isn't invulnerable. I ask again, how do you guys rate the Su-37/Su-30MKI versus the F/A-18E, EF-2000 and Rafale.
 
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displacedjim    RE:A good report and the best summary to end endless discussions   8/22/2004 1:36:18 AM
"According to my source, the RCS of the Su-27M is around 3m2." -- Boris This must immediately devolve into he said/he said, I suppose, and I stick with my number (knowing my source), but even at 3m2 that's still a detection range of 100NM v. 25NM based on the N011M chart in that report. -- Displacedjim ----- "The software probably is a bit better, but I have my doubts about the resolution and aperture." -- Boris I don't. I've recently heard that the F-35 radar can do stuff I didn't think was even possible for an AI radar to do. No comparison. I'd bet I was understating it. -- Displacedjim ----- ""IRST detecting the F-35 at some unknown but hypothetically greater range than the current IRST's less than 10NM range" -- DJim "IIRC, A PVO Su-27 (T-10S) managed to track an L-29 at a range of 50km in 1988. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the IRST, especially as the Russians are very experienced in these types of systems." -- Boris Regardless, it won't help when the F-35 is coming in on his 3 o'clock because the F-35 saw him five minutes ago and the Su-30 still doesn't even have a clue the F-35 is out there. -- Displacedjim ----- "N-011M+R-77/M/R-77PD/PDT will give the Su-30 series aircraft a chance against the F-35. It won't render the F-35 a sitting duck, but it certainly isn't invulnerable." -- Boris It doesn't matter if you arm the Su-30 with a drawing board ramjet Adder with a 50NM or a 500NM range--if the Su-30 pilot doesn't see the F-35 at 30NM, he certainly doesn't see him at 50 or 500. -- Displacedjim ----- "I ask again, how do you guys rate the Su-37/Su-30MKI versus the F/A-18E, EF-2000 and Rafale." -- Boris You can guess my answer, and it goes something like "Su-37? What's that? Now the Su-30MKI is a great airplane; thankfully there's only 18 of them in the world (curse those Israelis for selling the best of anything to anybody)." I leave it to the many resident experts to give more thoughtful answers. -- Displacedjim
 
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boris the romanian    RE:A good report and the best summary to end endless discussions   8/22/2004 1:55:11 AM
"This must immediately devolve into he said/he said, I suppose" My source states that second generation Su-27 and Su-30 Flankers have an RCS of about 3m2 (World Aircraft Information Files) "Regardless, it won't help when the F-35 is coming in on his 3 o'clock because the F-35 saw him five minutes ago and the Su-30 still doesn't even have a clue the F-35 is out there. " Depending on airspeed, altitude, attitude, and weather, the IRST might prove quite useful, especially regarding BVR detection of the F-35. It is quite safe to assume that an F-35's thermal signature would be somewhat greater than that of an L-29, and the Su-30's IRST is considerably updated. Couple that with R-27T/ET or R-77PDT and you have a chance for a BVR engagement of the F-35 at a greater range than possible with standard R-77/M/PD. I am curious about the F-35's emission signature, can you give me more info? I know the AMRAAM is quite distinctive, unfortunately when it goes active it is a little late :( "Now the Su-30MKI is a great airplane; thankfully there's only 18 of them in the world " There's only 18 NOW. Within a decade or so it will be more like 180, and I think more export orders await the MKI. I wouldn't discount the possibility of the Su-37 fetching export orders either. It may even fetch VVS orders now that Russia has begun spending extra (see Pucka's link on World Armed Forces). I think the Su-30MKI/Su-37 is the equal of the Typhoon in the air to air role, and considerably better than either the F-15 or the Rafale, or the Super Hornet. Can't wait for the ramjet Adders :)
 
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boris the romanian    RE:A good report and the best summary to end endless discussions   8/22/2004 2:00:10 AM
"I don't. I've recently heard that the F-35 radar can do stuff I didn't think was even possible for an AI radar to do. No comparison. I'd bet I was understating it. " How can the F-35's radar have better aperture than the N-011M, I mean, in such a small volume. The N-011M has even better resolution and aperture than the Zaslon and Zaslon A/M, and that's saying something.
 
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displacedjim    RE:A good report and the best summary to end endless discussions   8/22/2004 2:28:12 AM
Boris: "Depending on airspeed, altitude, attitude, and weather, the IRST might prove quite useful, especially regarding BVR detection of the F-35. It is quite safe to assume that an F-35's thermal signature would be somewhat greater than that of an L-29, and the Su-30's IRST is considerably updated. Couple that with R-27T/ET or R-77PDT and you have a chance for a BVR engagement of the F-35 at a greater range than possible with standard R-77/M/PD. I am curious about the F-35's emission signature, can you give me more info? I know the AMRAAM is quite distinctive, unfortunately when it goes active it is a little late :( "Now the Su-30MKI is a great airplane; thankfully there's only 18 of them in the world " There's only 18 NOW. Within a decade or so it will be more like 180, and I think more export orders await the MKI. I wouldn't discount the possibility of the Su-37 fetching export orders either. It may even fetch VVS orders now that Russia has begun spending extra (see Pucka's link on World Armed Forces)." --- I've said this a few times already regarding R-27T/ET, which applies by extension to any hypothetical R-77T/PDT. Please tell me what I'm missing in my analysis. There are two limits to the Rmax of an IR missile: Maximum kinematic range and maximum seeker lock-on range. The maximum range of the missile is the smaller of the two. Now the maximum seeker range could be extended by an ability to lock-on after launch, but it would still be however far away from the launch aircraft that can occur plus the seekers maximum lock-on range. I'm not aware of any currently operational Russian IR missiles that can do that. In the case of the R-27ET and the hypothetical R-77PDT, it doesn't matter that the kinematic range is 50NM+, because the maximum seeker range is only 8.0NM, according to page 80 of Kopp's report. Likewise, it doesn't matter if they produce a hypothetical superIRST, due to the same limiting factor of seeker performance. The R-27ET and R-77PDT have/would have a maximum range of 8NM, according to Kopp. I have no knowledge regarding the F-35's IR signature. Yes, by 2014 (I'm using your "decade") the Indians will have 180 of them. That will be a respectable force. Thankfully it's the Indians (who we haven't needed to tangle with so far) that have the most advanced FLANKER variant actually in service with anyone, and it may very well remain that way. -- Displacedjim
 
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boris the romanian    RE:A good report and the best summary to end endless discussions   8/22/2004 2:43:31 AM
"Please tell me what I'm missing in my analysis." In the initial phase of its launch the R-77PDT is command+inertial guided, you know that, right? I thought the R-27T RDM-3 was the same. With a sensor of 8km, you can launch before you have a lock and "command" the missile to the general vicinity (datalink), which the Flanker would have via IRST. He would have this passively, I might add.
 
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