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Subject: F-35 vs. Eurofighter
IAFbestinworld    8/13/2004 11:49:07 PM
Lockheed says that besides the f-22, the f-35 will be the best air to air fighter in the future, is this true? Could an f-35 take a Eurofighter? My opinion says yes since f-35 contains more stealthy characteristics.
 
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flamingknives    RE: Eurofighter strike style Vs F-35 Strike - Pseudonym   2/27/2006 5:47:25 PM
>>"Bringing the USAF heavies into the discussion is irrelevant, aside from a seemingly pathological >> desire to have the USA best in everything to the extent that entirely illogical reasoning is >>permissible." > >You were I assume talking about using the F-35 like a bomb truck, and saying it could never compare > the Typhoon in such a situation. Different aircraft different roles. > >Unlike you I don't feel the need to insult you, because we both know I'm right. > >The F-35 is a force multiplier, it gives us extra options. The Typhoon carrying bombs isn't that >important to us BECAUSE WE HAVE HEAVY BOMBERS. If you still don't see what I am trying to say, you >can continue patronizing me all you want it still won't make you right. I try not to patronise, but often fail, because I'm a naturally sarcastic person and also because you seem not to be reading what I'm writing. There are two points I'd like you to take on board: 1) I've not actually said anything about the relative merits of the two aircraft. If I have it wasn't the intention. 2) The Typhoon isn't important to the USAF at all, because they will not operate it. Since the comparison is between the EF and the JSF for any country with the capacity to operate both, any capabilities of the USAF are less than meaningless. They are simply not relevant because the USAF is not part of this discussion. Where the JSF and EF are competing it is for a swing-role aircraft. They would be procured to fill the same role.
 
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Pseudonym    RE:F-35 vs. Eurofighter   2/27/2006 10:43:42 PM
My point is that the F-35 brings a capability that the Typhoon has no part of. While you might be able to upgrade the Typhoon into a great 4th gen fighter/bomber, the fact will still remain it cannot match the extra surprise stealth brings to the battlefield. It is investment in the future, the Typhoon is an investment in the past.
 
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EW3    RE: DA/Yimmy   2/27/2006 11:10:14 PM
Darth, modern radar can easily detect a 500 pound bomb as it flies through the air, I dont see why it should be hardere to detect when its slung under a wing. Yimmy you are thinking of classic tactics. The new stand off weapons that can travel 100+ miles (not JDAM or SDB). So I'd use my stealth F-35 to launch some kind of standoff weapons and then climb to altitude to use my other weapons for a strike. You use the same platform, the F-35 to hit them high and hit them low.
 
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perfectgeneral    RE: Euro mission   2/28/2006 9:18:01 AM
The F35/Typhoon launches somthing standoff from outside the enemies S2A cover. Four extended range Storm Shadow say. 'It' then climbs high and pushes up to maximum speed to release ten small diameter bombs (or developed equivalent). The top speed of an F35 being 1.8 mach and that of the Typhoon being 2 mach plus means that the Typhoon can release from a little further out. Handy since the closer to the enemy you are the easier it is for them to track and attack you. I guess the key issue for me is where the crossover point is in those two advantages and whether europeans needs lie one side or the other of that crossover point. Standoff weapons cost more, so although a missile can 'go deep' better than a fighter, there is advantage in deeper use of hurled bombs. Will stealth outrange the larger throw?
 
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perfectgeneral    RE: Euro mission   2/28/2006 9:23:11 AM
However, what will the enemy do if you take out their S2A missiles and have greater numbers of fighters (with better BVR capability). Stealth or no stealth the hurl bombs come in deep. It takes a little less time, but is it really cheaper to use stealth? Do stealth attackers plan to keep S2A intact forever?
 
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DarthAmerica    RE: Euro mission --- Ummm except in the real world...   2/28/2006 10:05:51 AM
...The Typhoon cant do Mach 2 with ordinance hanging under the wings. In fact its probably limited to M1.5 with the load you mention. The F-35 however carrying a similar or better load internally could reach its V_Max however AND still have a range advantage due to lower drag penalty. Accept the facts PG. You are comparing the technology of yesterday to the state of the art.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE: Euro mission --- Ummm except in the real world...   2/28/2006 10:07:54 AM
...Forgot to add that it could also release its ordinance and simultaneously attack individual widely seperated targets because its avionics are superior.
 
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perfectgeneral    RE: Euro mission - how rude!   2/28/2006 10:33:10 AM
'except in the real world...' and 'Accept the facts PG.' have no purpose within your reply. Unless you intend to suggest that I don't live in the real world and that I can't face facts. Insult given and accepted. The Eurofighter/Typhoon is 'probably limited', but whether it is limited to mach 1.5 I have no way of establishing from open source. Your point seems to be one on relative drag. I'm sure you are the relative expert on this, but that doesn't inform nor educate me. I must say I was suprised by the F-35 'carrying a similar or better load internally'. More than ten SDB? Well yes more than one on each hard point is practical, they are small and light. The eurofighter can only carry about six paveway at present, but it is a work in progress. It will never be a true bomb truck. This thread is aimed more at the mission than the aircraft. In that I question whether euro nations have the need for a stealth strike mission. My second post tries to ask the question whether it is easier to eat a cake from the middle or from the edge?
 
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Yimmy    RE: Euro mission - how rude!   2/28/2006 10:48:07 AM
"So I'd use my stealth F-35 to launch some kind of standoff weapons and then climb to altitude to use my other weapons for a strike. You use the same platform, the F-35 to hit them high and hit them low." The aircraft will still lose its stealth while it has the pylons dangling from the wings - bomb attached or not, surely?
 
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DarthAmerica    RE: Euro mission - how rude! - Yimmy   2/28/2006 11:25:43 AM
>>>The aircraft will still lose its stealth while it has the pylons dangling from the wings - bomb attached or not, surely?<<< ---Yimmy, You dont "lose stealth" like a jacket or a set of car keys. Stealth is a combination of technology and tactics and is actually a rather analogue rather than digital concept. Think of it like the volume control in my truck vs the volume control of my iPod headphone combo. One has close to a 1000 watts of power and 10 speakers. I havent looked at the tec specs on the Ipod but I'm sure we can bet its considerable lower. Using an analogous comparison of your ears to a radar. Which do you think you would hear first at a given volume setting if you were standing a certain distance away? An even better analogy due to EM properties would be the headlights on a car vs a flashlight. I'm sure you get the idea. The F-35 will not "lose stealth". It will however increase its RCS. But because it has so much less of a return than a non-stealthy type in the first place. It will enjoy an advantage in how close it can get prior to detection. Now thats just based on technological merit. Throw in good tactics and you can improve even more. Tactics could include but arent limited to low altitude flight, EW support, internal jamming, parallel flight to CW radar, directly approching pulsed dopplers, threading the needle(easier with F-35) and all sorts of other methods.
 
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