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Subject: F-5 Outlives MiG-21
SYSOP    9/18/2014 5:50:32 AM
 
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keffler25       9/18/2014 9:47:40 AM
The F-5 proved itself superior in combat versus the MiG-21 although there were no combat encounters between F-5s and the 21st century models of the much improved and upgraded MiG-21s. While the F-5 ceased production in 1987 MiG-21s continued to be built until 2013. This was actually a Chinese clone called the J7. Over 2,400 J7s were produced over half a century. China began licensed production of the Russian MiG-21 in 1964, but it took another decade for that to evolve into the J7 and for mass production to really get started. The earlier ones were inferior to the MiG-21 because Russia refused to transfer technology for the latest models of this 1950s design. By the 1980s the Chinese had matched the Russian MiG-21. This didn’t bother the Russians because in 1985 Russia ceased production, after more than 11,000 had been produced. From then on, if you wanted a new MiG-21 you had only one source, the Chinese J7. In the last three decades China kept improving the J7 capabilities, mainly through tweaks to the airframe and better electronics. Most J7s were used by China but about twenty percent were exported to fourteen countries. About a dozen of these nations still operate their J7s. In 2011 China officially withdrew its J7s from first line service. This came as no surprise. Between 2007 and 2011 China more than doubled the number of modern combat aircraft (J-10, J-11, Su-27, Su-30, and J8F) from 500 to over 1,200. As recently as 2007 China relied mainly on some 2,000 locally built copies of Russian MiG-19s (J6) and MiG-21s (J7).
 
The article contradicts itself. 
 
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vahitkanig       9/18/2014 1:53:05 PM
What atract me at Mig-21 air  intake at fuselage  similar  at F-16  under the belly.
 
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trenchsol       9/18/2014 4:19:36 PM
Shooting down a MIG 21 might be a problem, because it tends to crash by itself first.
It is a very dangerous aircraft to fly.
 
However, MIG-23 was under appreciated, I think.  The aircraft received many upgrades. However, it was often flown by bad pilots. Other than that, it was quite a capable aircraft for its time.
 
 
 
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Blacktail       9/19/2014 3:25:50 AM
"The F-5s is a 12 ton fighter roughly similar to the 1950s era MiG-21..."
 
I read this all the time, but it isn't true. While it's true that they're both small, light, and they have the same roles, that's true of almost all Tactical Fighters. The designers of the F-5 and Mig-21 applied totally different orders of priority to those missions, resulting in two very different airframes.
 
The F-5A school of thought sees air-to-ground combat as the top priority of the Tactical Fighter. Bombing is inevitable in every air war, and the F-5A aims to keep the enemy off-balance on the ground (as well as in the air), early and often. It can carry a *lot* of bombs; theoretically up to a dozen of them, if 500lb bombs are carried. On a CAP mission, it carries a lot of missiles; up to 6 Sidewinders. If enemy Fighters show-up on a ground attack mission, the F-5A drops it's bombs and goes after the enemy Mig-21-style (see below), which just it's wingtip air-to-air missiles and guns; alternately, the F-5A formation might risk attacking their primary target first, and then go after the enemy aircraft. In short, the F-5A is meant to do a lot of damage on each sortie, which is reflected by the fact that (compared to the Mig-21) relatively few were built --- only some 4000. The F-5A's longer range reflects the predominate air arm philosophy of Western Bloc militaries, which sees them being primarily independent forces, and tries to drive offensive airpower deep into enemy territory.

The Mig-21F can only carry a pair of air-to-air missiles or a pair of bombs (or rocket pods); pick one. If there is a substantial air threat, the Mig-21F will always carry air-to-air missiles to defeat that threat; if air superiority has been achieved, the Mig-21F will prove it's weight by carrying air-to-ground ordnance instead, effectively serving on the front lines as an Attacker. Thanks to it's gunpack, a Mig-21F on a CAP mission can still provide some basic air support to embattled troops within it's (very short) range, and it also serves as an invaluable back-up to it's air-to-air missiles when fighting aircraft. When carrying air-to-air missiles, the Mig-21F is expected to intercept only one enemy, then break-off, in order to avoid becoming decisively engaged (groups of enemy aircraft are tackled with groups of Mig-21s, respectively). The Mig-21 can't carry much ordnance at once, but it's large numbers were meant to compensate for that --- over 10000 Mig-21s were manufactured by the USSR alone. It's shorter range is a result of the philosophy that air arms primarily support ground forces, and that Tactical Fighters need to be based very close to the front lines. A longer range would serve no function, because the battlefield is only 50-200 miles away, and endurance doesn't matter either, because there are tons of Mig-21s flying to and from the battlefield at all times (why burn fuel and exhaust yourself and burn lots of fuel in a protracted engagement, when the next flight of Mig-21s is only minutes away?).
 
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keffler25       9/19/2014 9:29:14 AM
Seriously Blacktail. Don't discuss aircraft. Just don't.
 
You start off half wrong and then go off the rails.
 
The F-5 was originally designed as a low end dayfighter target defense interceptor.
 
The Mig 21 was a high end dayfighter target defense interceptor.
 
 
quote:
 
The F-5 started life as a privately funded light fighter program by Northrop in the 1950s. The design team wrapped a small, highly aerodynamic fighter around two compact and high-thrust General Electric J85 engines, focusing on performance and low cost of maintenance. Though primarily designed for the day air superiority role, the aircraft is also a capable ground-attack platform.
 
 
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EvanH    F5 vs Mig21?   9/19/2014 11:22:39 AM
Any examples?  Taiwan vs China????
 
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keffler25       9/19/2014 1:15:14 PM
I'm not sure how well they did, but there were combats during the Ogadan War that Ethiopia fought, and Iran used the F-5 against Iraq.
 
Thing to remember is that a track record in aerial combat between types is as much or maybe more the pilot as it is the plane used, so I would EXPECT the Iranians to blast Mig flying Iraqis out of the sky with monotonous ease, even if the Iranians flew Sopwiith Pups.
 
 
Any examples?  Taiwan vs China????

 
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HR    Evan   9/19/2014 1:15:17 PM
The Mig 21 fought in the middle east. But those comparisons are not exactly perfect and there where no F-5 that I am aware of. /// In my opinion the F-5 was a better fighter. Late F-5 being far better still.
 
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joe6pack    Mig 21 vs F5   9/19/2014 1:59:25 PM
Found this example.. although maybe more pilot skill than aircraft:
 
 
"On 17 July 1977, two F-5s flown by Israeli pilots were on combat air patrol near Harer, when four Somali MiG-21MFs were detected nearby. In the engagement, two MiG-21s were shot down while the other two had a midair collision while avoiding an AIM-9B missile. The better-trained F-5 pilots swiftly gained air superiority over the Somali Air Force, shooting down a number of aircraft, while other Somali aircraft were lost to air defense and to incidents. However at least three F-5s were shot down by air defense forces during attacks against supply bases in western Somalia."
 
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Blacktail       9/19/2014 6:10:02 PM
 
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