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Subject: Best air defence of all time!
Red Star v.2    7/7/2003 10:42:53 AM
With a risk of being biasd I will say USSR, BUT because they lagged behind the west in fighters, so they developed a sophisticated SAM umbrella.
The North Viatnamese air dfence was quite strong as well-SA 2 + 37 mm fast firing AA guns + SA 7 + MiG-21 turned out to be a very deadly combination!
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/7/2003 11:43:57 AM
I believe it would have been the air interdiciton campaign by the 8th Air Force against the Luftwaffe in Spring 1944. Germans put 2 air craft sorties up over the invasion beach. Nothing else got through. However, from gound based AD, I would agree the old USSR had it. Why do you think the US spent so much on Stealth?
 
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Kodiak    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/7/2003 11:45:39 AM
Yes, the USSR definately had the best GROUND BASED air defense array.
 
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Soviet Spetsnaz    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/7/2003 8:01:19 PM
The S-400 is the most potent SAM system right now.
 
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Thomas    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/8/2003 2:44:14 AM
I would say the british at battle of Britain. It was the first integrated air defence with fighters, control and warning (integrating radar and visual observation) and AAA.
 
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Red Star v.2    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/8/2003 9:29:14 AM
Is the S-400 in production? Is there a site with info on it?
 
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Soviet Spetsnaz    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/8/2003 2:38:09 PM
Yes a few are said to be exported to China soon, if not allready. China is getting the finest Russian stuff. Like the Sovremenny Class Destroyer. Allthought many yanks will disagree with that and claim that's propaganda, but If you mean best AD, then its the Serbian AD system. No other nation developed such a AD system that can down stealth aircrafts. Our GRU reports that 3 F-117's have been downed and 1 damaged, the Pentagon confirmed that in fact one was downed and recently released a report that another F-117 was damaged. Pentagon is under huge pressure and they will release more "truth". Serbia's AD systems contained; Buk M-1-2 Tor M1 Kub Systems S-300PMU-2 Colchuga or TAMARA/VERA-E anti-stealth detection system. And a central core system wich collected all data from the huge sensor network over Serbia and the informations sent by Russian satellites. Serbia had Russian spy's working in Italy, Spain and Germany wich forewarned the Serb AD and sent routes and take-off times. You can get general info about the S-400 here; link I've heard about a S-400 system operational in Serbia and wich shot down a B-2, but I don't think its true.
 
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WinsettZ    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/8/2003 9:10:26 PM
USSR's Air defenses are still number one...followed by Europe. America's concept of Air Defense was using the USAF. Mounting measly Stinger platforms in Hummvees and Bradleys is NOT division air defense. Nor is a large deployable Patriot. I think Europe has some good missiles, but Russia probably still better. Traditionally the "Soviet-Style" military focuses on Infantry, Artillery, Air Defense.
 
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Thomas    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/9/2003 3:05:53 AM
I agree that the west needs an updated SAM system and AAA is very good against helicopters. The main problem is to operate with fighters, SAM's and AAA in the same airspace at the same time. Syria showed in the Bekaa-valley how NOT to defend airspace. When the Israelies had knocked out their SAMs, THEN they send in the fighters. We have a freindly fire problem here big-time. I think the problem is solveable.
 
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Red Star v.2    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/9/2003 10:43:19 AM
Yes, the best air defence includes fighters-like the Viatnamese. Although the miG-21 was inferior to the F-4, in a combination with SA2 it proved remarkabely succesful.
 
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P-3CrewSTA_6    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/21/2003 2:25:55 PM
Russia still has the best AD in the world, but AD is great and all but one thing remains: EA-6B Prowler. AD can't shoot what they can't see. Another reason US has Air Supemacy any time it goes into conflict. The US has used Iraq for 11 years as its Russian/French AD testbed. Russia, Ukraine, and France smuggled all their best AD in to see how it would match up against the Prowler. Nothing but smoking holes in the ground. With not even a knockdown for the missile boys. HARM's are nasty little bastard's. Just wait till ICAP III, and the EA-18G Growler. A Prowler's worst enemy is itself (old plane, hard to keep in the air for maint.)
 
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Thomas    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/29/2003 2:08:32 AM
Red Star and others: I would have said that the air defence of northern europe around 1980 was the best. The RDaAF plucked quite a few F-15 down (exercise wise) with F-104G Starfighters - the bloody thing could hardly make a 180 degree turn over Danish air space (at altitude), radar didn't work low level. Yes a competent air defence is essential - the jury is still out on the issue whether the defence is stronger than the offense - given appropiate equipment, training and organisation. My leaning is toward the defence; but there are so few instances where the proposition has been put to the test.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Best air defence of all time!   7/29/2003 6:46:33 AM
After the hard lessons of the Yom Kippur and Vietnam, Western techniques for pulling Soviet/Russian style air defences apart have given countries using Western doctrine the edge. The Soviet model of layered SAM defences and guns is really only relevant in the context of keeping enemy aircraft off the backs of a fast, numerically superior invading army. For most countries using Russian equipment do not have this advantage over their neighbours, so a Western style offensive anti-radiation and offensive air-superiority campaign will win in most instances. This is why the Soviet style model is a flawed choice for many of Russia's export customers. The long range S-300's and S-400's are formidable, but with the widespread introduction in stealthy aircraft, ALCM's and UCAV's over the next 10-15 years, they will be readily defeatable. However, the big missile's, the SU-27 and the increasing range of AWAC's available on the world market make that period of time look a lot less certain for Western countries waiting for their JSF's(see my new entry on the Indonesian SU-27/30 purchase). It looks like a return to the old ultra-low level approach, below the SAM radar for now.
 
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jacques    RE:Best air defence of all time!   9/20/2003 5:36:28 AM
I hate to say this but right now Russian has the best ground base air defense system eventhough they're down and out in the cold war. About 30 years ago the North Vietnamese had the best in a large part thank to the Russian plus other communist block countries for even Cuba chipped in to help them build up such massive air defense umbrella. During WW2 the German were the best they were just overwehlm big the sheer pressure placed on them. Even so they still fought on until the end. During WW1 the British had the best Air Defense system.
 
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Kodiak    RE:Best air defence of all time!   9/25/2003 9:24:42 AM
The best actually employed missle defense in combat was the israeli IDF and American HAWK SAMS
 
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Dancing Johnny    RE:Best air defence of all time!   9/25/2003 5:54:54 PM
All this talk about how great the Russian air defense systems are or were is just that, talk. When put into actual practice though, the Russian systems were routinely countered and penetrated by American air systems. The Russian systems might get in the first surprise punch, but the americans would find a way to counter whatever the Russians put up. This was proven in North Vietnam, various Israeli/Arab wars, Libia in the 80's, GW1 were we decimated the Russian systems, the Balkins. And in most of these case's were American or Israeli aircraft are lost, the user's of the Russian stuff have to expend dozens if not ten's of dozen missiles just to shoot down one aircraft. On the other hand I don't know when a post WWII US system was last penetrated. I read years ago that during the 72 Yom Kipper war, that 26 Egyptian aircraft were downed with 24 HAWK missiles!!! (lead aircraft in a formation would get hit by missile, and trailing aircraft would be damaged from debris, which shows poor airmanship by Egypt) Argetina did manage to penetrate the Royal Navy's defense's during the Fakland's war, but at a heavy lose.
 
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