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Subject: Could SAM attacks in Iraq be a 'turning pt.'
macawman    11/6/2003 7:30:28 AM
Peshmerga/CIA Stinger operations in the Russian/Afgan war 'broke the back' of the Soviet military in that war. The Soviet aircraft losses to Stingers were weekly the last year of Soviet occupation in Afganistan. The NG Chinook shoot down over the weekend may have been an aberation. The CH-47 'apparently' did not have anti-SAM flare/ECM equipment according to a squadron member of the downed CH-47. The Army will probably reduce exposure of non ECM equiped aircraft in the Sunni region if they have upgraded replacements. Note: Flare technology will likely work against 60's vintage technology SA-7s, but not the dual band capable UV/IR SA-18s. The Russians found this out the hard way in Chechnia.
 
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macawman    RE:Could SAM attacks in Iraq be a 'turning pt.'   11/6/2003 8:58:24 AM
>>>The Soviet aircraft losses to Stingers were weekly the last year of Soviet occupation in Afganistan.<<< Examples of lethality include 1) the Afghan mujahedeen killing of 269 Soviet aircraft with 340 such missiles. >>>Note: Flare technology will likely work against 60's vintage technology SA-7s, but not the dual band capable UV/IR SA-16/18s<<< The 9M313 missile of the SA-16 employs an IR guidance system using proportional convergence logic, and an improved two-color seeker, presumably IR and UV). The seeker is sensitive enough to home in on airframe radiation, and the two-color sensitivity is designed to minimize vulnerability to flares. Source: Globalsecurity.org
 
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crna_zvezda    RE:Could SAM attacks in Iraq be a 'turning pt.'   11/7/2003 6:14:10 AM
Is this number a whole total on the ten year war? I find it pretty marginal to the 13 256 soviet servicemen killed on ambushes and by pandemic diseases.
 
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crna_zvezda    RE:Could SAM attacks in Iraq be a 'turning pt.'   11/7/2003 6:22:53 AM
Peshmerga is a recent term, they called them selves mudjaheeds. I don't think this could be a turning point, especially when you think at the enormous force that the US has in IRAQ. Also there is not another force that could supply the insurgents/terrorists/resistants with hardware without being unmasked. I think this action will last on some kind of iraqi chronical uprisings but i don't expect them to send home the US force. Also the american morale has to be taken to account (not the troops' morale but the US public's one.) I just hope that the US will be able to avoid a second Viet nam! On the other point i woould like to know if Russia isn't helping the resitants by sending hardware from the iranian/syrian border! This not a kind of paranoia but a way for russia to get revenge after afghanistan and the oil contracts it has lost. I am not American, nor anti Russian!!!
 
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macawman    RE:Could SAM attacks in Iraq be a 'turning pt.'   11/7/2003 10:02:47 AM
>>>>Examples of lethality include 1) the Afghan mujahedeen killing of 269 Soviet aircraft with 340 such missiles.<<< >>>Is this number a whole total on the ten year war?<<< Stingers were not issued to Afgan fighters until late into the war. I believe it was in the last 3 to 4 years of a 10 year guerilla war.
 
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macawman    RE:Could SAM attacks in Iraq be a 'turning pt.'   11/7/2003 5:38:08 PM
>>>I find it pretty marginal to the 13 256 soviet servicemen killed on ambushes and by pandemic diseases.<<
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:Could SAM attacks in Iraq be a 'turning pt.'   11/9/2003 2:31:11 PM
I think it points out something, but I'm not sure I would call it a "turning point". It shows me that the dumb guerrillas are either dead or are being instructed by smarter guerrillas. Notice that most of the attacks are "improvised" bombs remotely controlled. Some of the RPG and mortar attacks were reported as being triggerred remotely as well. So you've got attacks being carried out, where the guilty party can get away. The US should be able to counter them with no problems, but I suspect that hunting down the guilty parties will be slightly more difficult.
 
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Ulenspiegel    RE:Could SAM attacks in Iraq be a 'turning pt.'   11/21/2003 4:28:20 AM
When we consider the relative small number of insurgents in Iraq compared to the number of occupation forces nobody will really assume that the SAM attacks have a real impact on the tactical level (compared to the situation Soviet forces faced afetr 1985). So the real question is do they have an impact on the strategic level? IMHO the answer is a clear yes. The insurgents want to attack the weak point of the American strategy, the public opinion at the 'home front', and here the destruction of helicopters with many KIA/WIA has a real impact. The SAM attacks are maybe no real turning point, but are from the insurgent's POV very economic operations. Ulenspiegel
 
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