How exactly do you counter stealth?

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kjetski RE:How exactly do you counter stealth? 7/8/2004 5:48:04 PM

More power! Brute force and ignorance.

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doggtag RE:How exactly do you counter stealth? 7/8/2004 6:20:57 PM

It depends on what areas of low-observability your stealth tech exploits: radar, visual, acoustic, or thermal. For radar stealth, the solution will be improved developments in radar technologies and effective tactics. The same can be said for using improved sonars and methods to track low observable submarines (technically, subs were stealthy long before aircraft). And thermally, improvements in IR spectrum processing and detection systems may eventually be able to pick out even a slightly cooled jet exhaust from the ambient background air temperature spectrum. This is years out, but it is feasible..

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Galderio RE:How exactly do you counter stealth? 7/12/2004 11:16:16 AM

There are the bi-statics radar systens. In many cases it works better than tradicional antenas. Like the SA-11.

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displacedjim RE:How exactly do you counter stealth? 7/13/2004 9:49:15 AM

What radar associated with the SA-11 is bi-static? Displacedjim

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Galderio RE:How exactly do you counter stealth?displacedjim 7/13/2004 12:49:27 PM

I�m not a specialist as you. It is very hard to find military books here in Brazil. Maybe not the SA-11, but you still can build a system where the receptor antena is far away from the transmiter. Stealth aircrafts have very low frontal RCS and part of the radar�s energy is reflected to other directions that are not forward. A bi-static system could dectect that sides reflected energy. 1-What do think about this? 2-Why the SA-11 TEL has it�s own antena(radar dish) and the SA-6 does not? 3-Do you know any missile system that uses bi-static radars? - Jo�o -

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displacedjim RE:How exactly do you counter stealth?displacedjim 7/13/2004 7:40:58 PM

"Maybe not the SA-11, but you still can build a system where the receptor antena is far away from the transmiter. Stealth aircrafts have very low frontal RCS and part of the radar�s energy is reflected to other directions that are not forward. A bi-static system could dectect that sides reflected energy. "1-What do think about this? "2-Why the SA-11 TEL has it�s own antena(radar dish) and the SA-6 does not? "3-Do you know any missile system that uses bi-static radars?" ----------- 1) You are right on target, and bi-static is one technology that's been discussed with regard to increased detection and tracking capability against stealthy aircraft. Assuming you can master the signal processing and establish an emitter-receiver network, it may well be useful. 2) Other SAM designs do, as well. The acronym to describe the two designs is TEL (Transporter-Erector-Launcher) and TELAR (Transporter-Erector-Launcher-and-Radar). For example, the SA-8 also uses a TELAR. Virtually all radar-guided SAMs are something other than active homing, thus they need guidance commands passed to them based on tracking from an off-missile radar. Except for certain very modern radars, most Target Tracking/Missile Guidance radars can only pass data on one target at a time. Therefore, regardless of how many missiles and launch rails you have, you can only shoot at one time at as many targets as you have TT/MG radars. If you have one on each TEL, making it a TELAR, then each TELAR becomes capable of an independent target engagement. Two, three, or four SA-6 TELs associated with one STRAIGHT FLUSH TT/MG means engaging only one target at a time; two, three, or four SA-11 TELARs with a FIRE DOME on each means engaging up to two, three, or four targets at once. 3) No, and I wouldn't expect to for quite some time. First off, it's hard enough with a network of several long range, relatively lower frequency Early Warning radars. But that only provides detection and tracking. Then trying to do it with the types of radars you need for target engagement will be even more difficult, particularly to meet the real-time requirement for actual missile guidance. Alles klar? Displacedjim

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Galderio RE:How exactly do you counter stealth?displacedjim 7/20/2004 9:05:30 AM

Thank you very much! Here, most of our ADs are Sa-16 and stationary 35mm canons, the rest is probably obsolet. We have a very limited air defense capability. -Galdereio-

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Crosshair RE:How exactly do you counter stealth, some ideas 8/2/2004 4:23:04 PM

The only CURRENT method to counter stealth is to have mobile command center and to put your AA defenses on orphanages and hospitals (Not PC but effective) Also have your AA move around too. Stealth aircraft have very limited "search and destroy" capabilities. If they can't target them, they can't send them in to strike. If you have a fixed position you can smoke screen the thing to make laser bombs and IR useless. (B2 uses GPS bombs, so it won't work for that.) Posibly the best defence is to develope a FCR that can detect the bombs themselves and shoot them into shrapnel before they hit the ground/target. If they can shoot down cruse missles at 500 mph then it should be no problem to use it for bomb's. The bombs themselves are not stealth so would be easy to detect. Also, with the F-117 is it possible to track the aircraft from the laser beam it emmits, put direction detectors on possible targets and link them to a fire control system. I am not saying such methods are or would be effective, but they are possible ideas.

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wagner95696 RE:How exactly do you counter stealth, some ideas 8/2/2004 4:56:00 PM

The Australians have reported that their long range over the horizon radar system detected B-2 take offs and landings in Texas! Another newer proposal is to use ordinary radio and television transmissions, the sky is filled with them, to illuminate the targets and to use a frequency hopping receiver coupled with sophisticated computers to analyze the returns. This could be very effective as there are so many civilian transmitters that they would not immediately attract air strikes. Also, they operate on so many frequencies it would complicate aerial jamming by attacking aircraft.

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gf0012-aust Over the Horizon Radar - US and Aust 8/2/2004 9:34:06 PM

The fact that the US has signed a co-participation document to be involved in future development of the Australian JORN system should be a clue of how valid and useful they see the tech. There is also a second Australian system that is capable of detecting stealth - it has a much shorter range of only 4-500km. The JORN system also has had anecdotal comment about being able to see stinkbugs over Bagdhad. Considering the way that the ionosphere can work, it's not as far fetched as people may think. It's official range is 3500+ km. It has detected aircraft substantially further than that in certain conditions.

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gf0012-aust Over the Horizon Radar - US and Aust - Addendum 8/2/2004 9:37:38 PM

The other issue is that the JORN system has detected two different types of stealth platformss - the stinkbug and the B2 use different concepts to reduce their signature - and that shows a different level of capability. Not all stealth signature reduction concepts are similar and its critical to be able to deliver across "platforms".

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Galderio RE:How exactly do you counter stealth? 8/24/2004 9:49:39 AM

OHR have long range but have bad precision, how could they know their were trancking a stealth bomber at the other side of the world?

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wagner95696 RE:How exactly do you counter stealth? 8/25/2004 12:11:15 AM

The easiest way to destroy stealth is while they are still on the ground. Also, stealth aircraft briefly become visible at the moment they launch their weapons. So far stealth aircraft are all subsonic. I wonder if it would be possible to use an acoustic homer that when launched into the general proximity could detect the sound and home on that?

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giblets RE:How exactly do you counter stealth? 9/16/2004 10:53:34 AM

The question should look at how stealth works, the F-117, works by reducing the reflection,and then bouncing it off in odd directions,t eh B2 mainly by reduction in signature. However, they both still give a signatire, about the size of a bird. All you needs is good detection,a nd a good computer, most radars will probably ignore radar returns below a certain size, mainly due to thinks like birds and 'clutter'. If your computer is fast enough to look at all these birds etc, and find one doing 400mph, then you are sorted. In short you need more powerful, and more sensitive radars that have big fast computers attached.

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displacedjim RE:How exactly do you counter stealth? 9/16/2004 12:04:52 PM

Yes, but that's not easily or cheaply done. I'm not a radar analyst, but I know something about it, and the following may contain some errors but be basically correct (I hope). I'm not including everything, just enough to draw the picture of early warning detection of aircraft. A radar sends out and receives energy in a series of pulses. Beamwidth and pulsewidth will dictate resolution--the size of a cell in space that can be determined to either contain a target or not (narrow beamwidth and short pulses equals a small cell). For each antenna sweep the radar produces a bunch of signals that indicate which cells were occupied at that time, based on whether enough signal return came back to the antenna to be detected by the radar receiver. However, along with getting some returns from aircraft, you get returns from mountains, clouds, birds, and nothing (i.e., system noise). These returns are just returns. The radar doesn't know what they are, it just knows it received energy that appears to have been reflected off of things in particular cells. If every return was forwarded for processing, yes you'd need a lot more computer power. As a compromise, a filter is used to eliminate the weakest ones, based on the assumption they are noise, birds, clouds, etc. Whats left of the cell returns (there's still other processing, which I think sometimes includes somewhere in this process an attempt to detect relatively stationary targets by eliminating the returns from cells that are constantly giving a return, etc., but let's move on) are forwarded as plots. The radar still doesn't know what they are, just that they are the cells with stronger returns. Now the plots must be correlated with previous plots in order to detect if it's an aircraft. This seems to me to be almost as much an art as a science. I don't feel like trying to go into detail, but essentially all the plots are compared to all the other plots within a certain distance and using predictive algorithms some plots are associated with others and are assigned as tracks. Once a track is formed, air defenses can now react. Air defenses engage tracks, not plots. Once a track is formed, then the correlation continues with each new set of received plots, and based on predictions of heading, speed and (if known) altitude, and changes in them, the new plots are matched up where possible with the known tracks. Meanwhile faded tracks are dropped and new tracks are formed. If you reduce your noise gate level low enough to include the tiny returns from the stealth aircraft, you also include a zillion other returns, and it quickly makes for a lot more plots, which quickly makes for a lot more computation for forming tracks. That's something that is way beyond the capabilities of most of the air surveillance equipment currently in use around the world. And that's just to detect it. After that comes trying to engage it. Displacedjim

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