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maranatha lidya RE:losser 6/6/2003 9:51:12 AM

If someone said that Indonesian economy depends of Chinese people, I think that person was totally mistaken. Chinese culture is very bad for Indonesian economic growth. Chinese people tend to do anything, yes, ANYTHING to get money. They don't care if it's legal or illegal. I would say that almost 99% of Chinese people in Indonesia have ever succesfully done something illegal, such as corrupting government's money, or committing money laundry. Singapore is a save haven for the Chinese-Indonesians who have committed illegal things. One more thing, i will tell you why the inlander (native people) in Indonesia hate Chinese. Firstly, they don't adapt, and never will. The Indians and Arabics, even white people (mostly Australian) are very good on this, I mean to adapt with the native people, but the Chinese are not. People here tend to make stereotypes. For example: Australians are happy and friendly mates that you will get along easily. Chinese are a.s.s.holes, they don't hang out with inlander because they underestimate people. Secondly, the Chinese-Indonesians are money grobbers, stingy and they even to cheap to buy clothes for their children. How can Indonesian economy depend on people like this???? Thirdly, the Chinese-Indonesians do not feel that they are Indonesians. They don't have patriotism or nationalism. Chinese-Indonesians are a lot different with the Chinese-American or any other Chinese in the world. Chinese-Indonesians are a bunch of losers. Well Mr.Ratana, please no hard-feeling, i'm just telling the truth. I don't hate chinese.

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spectre RE:losser 7/11/2003 11:02:53 AM

Replace Chinese with Jew and Indonesian with German, and you've got quite a case for ethnic cleansing there.

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maranatha lidya RE:losser 8/2/2003 11:16:53 AM

Ratana, if you don't like the way things are, then go home to your MOTHERLAND!

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MTS maranatha lidya You embarrass the Indonesians 8/10/2003 7:07:29 AM

I am Chinese myself and for the last few months I would have considered going to Indonesia. You have to recognise that your people made a mistake. Comments like yours would likely discourage Chinese from visiting Indonesia. You were lucky the riots occured at a time when China was not so strong. The truth is that barbaric acts did occur in Indonesia so you should be feeling ashamed about it not try to justify the errors. Besides, the Chinese are most successful in every part of SE Asia. I believe the Indonesians just wanted to take out their frustration on the Chinese. You say the Chinese stiick together and all this nonsense, then why can't the other 97% stick together to outperform the 3% ethnic Chinese then? That way, the Chinese would be poor?

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maranatha lidya RE:maranatha lidya You embarrass the Indonesians 8/12/2003 10:19:31 AM

MTS, maybe you should come to Indonesia, and see it by yourself. In the city where I live, as in most cities, most Indonesians tend to live in cramped houses or shacks with dubious plumbing, while the small minority of ethnic Chinese often live in mansions with satellite dishes in the yards. Ethnic Chinese account for less than 3 percent of Indonesia's population of 210 million but control perhaps half the economy. If you said that the indonesians just wanted to take out their frustations of the chinese, you are correct. Why? Because life has never been fair for them. Plus, people are angry with the fact that soo many chinese (and stupid Javanese too)stole and corrupted government's money. If you don't believe me, you can find it on the net. But I never said that I agreed with the riots, the rapes and blablabla since I'm a woman. You wrote: "You were lucky the riots occured at a time when China was not so strong." Even when China was strong, they wouldn't do anything. Remember the anti-communist riot at 1965? More than a thousand chinese-indonesian were killed during the anti-communist riot at '65-'66. If you don't know about it, you should read more about Indonesia. Later, not long after the riot occured, the People's Republic of China broke the diplomatic relation with Indonesia...and I don't think it's a big deal. You wrote: "You say the Chinese stick together and all this nonsense, then why can't the other 97% stick together to outperform the 3% ethnic Chinese then? That way, the Chinese would be poor?" Well I'm telling you, we're struggling for it. Not only from Chinese, but also from the Javanese. Anyway, just like I said, I don't hate chinese. I just don't respect them. But if you are from PRC or ROC or HK, I respect you.

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MTS maranatha lidya But it is like that elsewhere 8/16/2003 3:39:51 AM

Generally speaking, south east Asia has better land and climate than China that is why the Chinese are hard working. I would like to tell you that the ethnic Chinese in Thailand, Cambodia, Burma, Russian Far East also control a lot of wealth. It is their hard working spirit. Let me ask you a question, if these rich people were ethinic Indonesians however you would like to classify it would you be so angry? Is this not a case of jealousy? Would you say this is racism if you resent this group of people because they are rich? And in any case, it is open competition so if they come out on top then the market decided that. Why can't the other 97% use the same tactic to get rich then, supposing your assumption that they corrupt the police or government or whatever? China was very weak in the 1960s, but also China and other governments have signed an agreement to say that ethinic Chinese overseas are no longer their subjects. China was still weak in 1998. But it will be another story in 20 years time. How come Indonesians don't do it to the Japanese? Is it because Indonesians imagine that Japanese make high tech goods and are an advanced society, so you give them more respect?

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maranatha lidya RE:maranatha lidya But it is like that elsewhere 8/16/2003 12:50:00 PM

Dear MTS, You Wrote: "if these rich people were ethinic Indonesians however you would like to classify it would you be so angry? Is this not a case of jealousy? Would you say this is racism if you resent this group of people because they are rich?" Yes, you are correct. This is a case of jealousy. And you are right about the racism too. People here don't hate the Indians, Arabics or the Australians, although there are lots of them who are rich too. For example, Texmaco, the biggest textile company in Indonesia is owned by an Indian-Indonesian. But people don't hate them. Another example, in the province of Bali, many rich Australians own properties, and again, we don't hate them. We love them. Do you know why? Because they are not arrogant. They don't do dirty stuff. They don't establish what so called special community. I've almost never seen them got busted for doing dirty stuff. What I read in the newspaper is only like 'Chinese conglomerate was sent behind bars for commiting corruption' You wrote: "Why can't the other 97% use the same tactic to get rich then, supposing your assumption that they corrupt the police or government or whatever?" Yeah, as if they have the ability to do that. The government officials are corrupted, and easy to bribe. And we all know who has the ability to bribe the government officials ;)Besides, if they got busted, they have no place to run. When Eddy Tanzil stole 1.3 trillion Rupiahs, he ran away to the PRC. Hendra Rahardja stole more than 500 billion rupiahs, and he went off to Singapore. And there are still more chinese conglomerates ran away to the mainland or Singapore after stealing government's money. You wrote: "How come Indonesians don't do it to the Japanese? " Did I say 'Japanese'? I said 'JaVanese'. Javanese (or Jawa) is one of the ethnic majority in Indonesia (about 14%), and they control the politics and the armed forces. Most of the gov officials are the Javanese. If you asked me why don't we do the same thing to the javanese, well, it's hard to say. They are the majority (actually 14% is not much, is it?), they control the gov (which is corrupted), military and other important stuff. But most of them are poor, and since I live in the island of Java, I can't afford to disrespect them. But in some area, people hate the Javanese. In Aceh for example, the rebels hate the Javanese soo much, they would abduct and kill them.

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MTS RE:maranatha lidya But it is like that elsewhere 8/16/2003 6:42:31 PM

But from what I have read elsewhere, not all ethinic Chinese are rich, most are just middle class. There are only a few that are very rich. You also have to ask yourself why the Chinese had their own little communities. Don't you think it is a little odd that Chinese language is banned in Indonesia? As a group, the Chinese have been treated unfairly right form the start, when did they ban Indian or Dutch or any other language in Indonesia. I think Indonesians should be more angry with the Dutch sinch they ruled over Indonesia for centuries and they probably made more profit than anyone else. So when are Indonesians going to kill the Dutch? The truth is that the riots were just a way for Indonesians to vent their anger, and a lot of it is not because of what the Chinese did. Indonesians probably felt being humiliated by the Dutch too but could not do anything about it so the Chinese were scapegoats. Suppose what you said is true, that the government is corrupt. Why is it that other groups could not save enough money to manipulate the government like the Chinese? Afterall, the Chinse arrived with little money so everyone has a fair chance of using the tactics. So if the government is corrupt, why did the rioters go for Chinese only, why not the government. Why didn't they try to kill government officials and their families? At some point, Indonesians must realise that their attacks were quite racist. Moreover, people from allover the world keep their cultures when they go overseas. Indians wear their traditional clothes. If an Indonesian migrates overseas, they are likely to eat their own food and stay in their own group, that is so normal. I see Thais in China and they stay in their own group, so what? I can imagine Australians in Indonesia, especially Bali, they are there for sex with young girls. Why don't you hate them? I was correct in mentioning Japanese. Basically, Indonesians believe that Australians, Japanese, and westerners belong to the "advanced world" or "1st world" so they get a little more respect. This is why you respect them more. It is not the case for Chinese because China is still considered as a backward country in most peoples' minds. I have a Japanese friend who went to Indonesia, he said the Indonesians were quite fond of Japanese people. Now explain to me this. When then Japanese invaded Indonesia, their were also keen to impose their superiority onto Indonesians and they probably killed more people, so why don't you hate them? I don't know where you get your information from but the Chinese never took any lives in Indonesia. In fact, they were the victims right from the start. Even if I assume what you said were correct, that the Chinese corrupt the government, then the riots should have been limited to robbing and stealing. But it is unfortunate since the riots involved deaths. How could the perpetrators honestly live with the conscience that they killed with their bare hands? I think you are trying to make excuses for yourself. Suppose the Indonesians accept all races to be Indonesian as long as they were born there, then why can't they tolerate a particular class being rich? Skin colour had everything to do with who were targeted. You say the Chinese act arrogantly, well don't all rich people act like that if they are rich in any country? Do you honestly think the upper class British mix with the people from lower class backgrounds in the UK? Remember the motto in Indonesia is "unity in diveristy", somehow I think practise is nothing like that.

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maranatha lidya RE:maranatha lidya But it is like that elsewhere 8/17/2003 1:29:30 PM

MTS my friend, you said: "But from what I have read elsewhere, not all ethinic Chinese are rich, most are just middle class." It's not everything about who's rich and who's not. It's about who adapts and who doesn't. Immigrants should not underestimate and disrespect native people and it's culture. The riot in the city of Pekalongan started when some small chinese community acting very rude by insulting the traditional culture. "As a group, the Chinese have been treated unfairly right from the start. Don't you think it is a little odd that Chinese language is banned in Indonesia? " I don't know where you got that information. When the Dutch ruled Indonesia, it was the native people who were treated unfairly. Indonesians were the "3rd class citizens", while the Dutch and other white races were the 1st class, and the Chinese were the 2nd class. We were done fighting the Dutch at 1949, and in 1950s, our first President, Soekarno, kicked out all the Dutch from Indonesia, but he didn't do it to the Chinese. He even admitted that Chinese Culture was part of Indonesian national culture. But unfortunately, at 1965 Indonesian Communist Party-or PKI,Partai Komunis Indonesia (who was supported by Chinese communist party in PRC)tried to make communism as the main govmental system. They did nasty things. They murdered many civilians, they burnt mosques and churches since they didn't believe in God. They even abducted and killed 6 generals at Sept 30, 1965. A year later, everything that was related to the communism was banned. And since the PRC was the biggest communist state in Asia, everything related with China was also banned, including the language and culture. Chinese language and culture is no longer banned since Abdurahman Wahid became President. Communism is still banned, though. "So when are Indonesians going to kill the Dutch? Why don't you hate them?" But why would I wanna do that? The Dutch (and Japanese) are history. If I had lived at early or mid 1900s, I perhaps would have hated them. But we're through with them. "why did the rioters go for Chinese only, why not the government" In May 98, the rioters tried to 'invade' the parliament building. They even tried to burn the President's house. And you have to know that the chinese is not the only victim. "It is not the case for Chinese because China is still considered as a backward country in most peoples' minds." Ummm, I think i'll see it this way: The chinese considered indonesian culture as backward culture, thus indonesian culture doesn't have to be respected. Although they are the 3rd generation, they still think that they don't have to speak Indonesian language properly, they don't have to learn and respect local cultures, because in their mind Indonesia is only poor and backward country. "How could the perpetrators honestly live with the conscience that they killed with their bare hands?" The perpetrators that you mentioned were only a small group of insane maniacs. Usually the riots that involved the chinese was only limited to stealing and robbing. But yes, in Jakarta May 98, the riot involved deaths. But like I said, the chinese was not the only victim at that riot. The rioters targeted every government symbols, they also targeted rich Indonesian people who were considered as corruptors. Unfortunately, the chinese group were the biggest victim since they are considered as corruptors too. "Suppose the Indonesians accept all races to be Indonesian as long as they were born there, then why can't they tolerate a particular class being rich?" We don't mind people being rich! As long as we respect each other, there'd be no problemo! And the most important thing is, how they got rich. People won't respect someone who got rich by doing illegal stuff. "You say the Chinese act arrogantly, well don't all rich people act like that if they are rich in any country?" I know lots of rich people who's not arrogant. I also know some chinese kid in my neighbourhood who's not that rich but arrogant. Even the loser who started this topic is -I think-very arrogant. How dare he claimed that Indonesian economy depend on chinese people. It's very not true. We never depended on someone else.

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MTS RE:maranatha lidya But it is like that elsewhere 8/17/2003 5:00:55 PM

"The riot in the city of Pekalongan started when some small chinese community acting very rude by insulting the traditional culture. " I was not there and I doubt you were. But whether or not they insulted traditional culture or they corrupted the government, it does not justify death and murder. You are simply trying to justify all this. What you wrote about Chinese language was what I had in mind. But the Chinses had to adopt Indonesian names too, but no other race had to, right? So it is a bit unfair. "The Dutch (and Japanese) are history. If I had lived at early or mid 1900s, I perhaps would have hated them. But we're through with them." Well I guess the Chinese should be history too. "The chinese considered indonesian culture as backward culture, thus indonesian culture doesn't have to be respected. Although they are the 3rd generation, they still think that they don't have to speak Indonesian language properly, they don't have to learn and respect local cultures, because in their mind Indonesia is only poor and backward country. " To be honest, does it matter what they think? If Indonesia is to be a democracy, then people should be allowed to think how they like, wear whatthey like. Remember the Indonesia national motto! I see Indonesians and Thais here but they can think what they want, they can speak their own language daily. I couldn't care less if they did not act like Chinese people. Please take a trip around Asia, see for yourself, there are so many westerners who don't speak the local language, nor do they take up local customs, well let it be. I don't know what they think, maybe they think western culture is superior but it doesn't harm me. I think Indonesians were frustrated because they knew they were economically worse off but suppose everyone was equally rich, they would not care at all what the Chinese did. We have been speaking for such a long time, I simply think you want to justify all the murder, and that I don't agree with you at all. Those people who went rioting targeted people (mainly Chinese)randomly. So no one really knew if the victim 'stole money from the state' as you put it or not. The perpetrators were crazy people and they commited serious crimes. I said to you before it is one thing to rob another person's pocessions but another thing to take away life. No one has the right to do that. If you still claim what was done was right, then it only shows there is something wrong with Indonesian law. The Chinese do control the economy, and I read that from many sources and I can point you to these sites if you wish. You contradict yourself now, you said earlier on that the Chinese corrupt the government so they must have had money to do that, well wouldn't you call that control? You seem to think being arrogant menas violence settles scores. Well I see the US as very arrogant but does that mean we need a world war? Your argument seems rather hollow. I know what I would do if I saw an arrogant person, I would simply ignore them and that is the end of the issue. Let the Chinese think how they like. If corruption is the name of the game, then all others in Indoesia should work hard, save hard and play the same game. Then you can get your revenge on the Chinese. But violence is wrong.

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towgunner1960 RE:maranatha lidya But it is like that elsewhere 8/17/2003 9:57:23 PM

boring.......

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Thomas RE:TOW 8/18/2003 6:17:43 AM

If you consider, that danish tax-authorities consider bribes to indonesians tax-deductible (and that takes some doing) I don't think indonesians have anything to blame the chinese (where bribes by the way is also tax-deductable)

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maranatha lidya RE:maranatha lidya But it is like that elsewhere 8/18/2003 12:52:19 PM

"I was not there and I doubt you were. But whether or not they insulted traditional culture or they corrupted the government, it does not justify death and murder." I wasn't there, but it became a national issue. And riot in Pekalongan didn't involve deaths. "But the Chinses had to adopt Indonesian names too, but no other race had to, right?" EVERYTHING that's related to communism and china was banned, remember? But it's not like that anymore. "I see Indonesians and Thais here but they can think what they want, they can speak their own language daily." Do you honestly think that there is no racism in Europe or US, or another Asian countries, or even in China itself? Do you realise that now American hate the moslems after the 9/11? And why some people in UK call the Pakistani "Paki"? Or some people in US call the Japanese and Chinese with funny names such as "Japs or Chinx". And some Malaysian call some Indonesian immigrants "Indon". Don't you think it's kinda rude and rather insulting? Everything happened for a reason. Racism usually take place if the 'new comers' don't respect the local cultures or law. And I don't buy it if you say that there is no racism in China. "so many westerners who don't speak the local language, nor do they take up local customs, well let it be." At least they're not arrogant. My very best mate is an Australian, and although he doesn't speak Indonesian that well,he respects our culture. "The Chinese do control the economy, and I read that from many sources and I can point you to these sites if you wish. You contradict yourself now, you said earlier on that the Chinese corrupt the government" Yes, I mentioned about the chinese controlling half of the indonesian economy. It's the case of jealousy, remember? And the jealousy got worst when those rich people stole government's money, and then took off to Singapore or China. "I simply think you want to justify all the murder" Did I say I agreed with the murder and all that stuff? I'm just telling you the reason why people here don't like Chinese. "You seem to think being arrogant menas violence settles scores. Well I see the US as very arrogant but does that mean we need a world war?" They don't have the right to do the violence, but they do have the rights to be angry. Well, let me ask you something. When someone comes to your house, insults you and your family, eats all the food on the dinner table, would you be so angry? "I know what I would do if I saw an arrogant person, I would simply ignore them and that is the end of the issue." But if someone insulted your culture or religion, i'm very sure that you'd be pissed. "If corruption is the name of the game, then all others in Indoesia should work hard, save hard and play the same game" What'd this country be like if everyone plays the same game? The rich gets richer, and the poor gets poorer? Yeah right, that seems fair enough! Are you encouraging me to commit corruption?

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MTS RE:maranatha lidya But it is like that elsewhere 8/18/2003 9:08:01 PM

I believe that banning Chinese language because they were worried about communism is a little stupid. Did they ban Russian too? I mean it is easy to translate the communist manifesto into any other language, don't you think? It was only an excuse to supplant the Chinese culture I think. Yes there is racism everywhere. But Indians wear their traditional clothes in UK. Thais can eat their own food in China. Indonesians can speak their own language in the US. But you said earlier on that the Chinese somehow committed a crime because they did not blend into society. I am not sure what some Chinese did in Indonesia but I don't all Chinese are rich. I think there are probably 20 or 30 people in Indonesia who are super rich, and some of them happens to be Chinese. This means that the people who lost their lives in the Jakarta riots were mostly innocent normal people who happened to have the wrong skin colour. Your analogy is not quite correct. The Chinese went to Indonesia with nothing, they did have to save to get to where they are. I don't think the locals gave them free food. As for the insults, I don't see what you mean. I guess they just didn't take up Indonesian customs but that should not be a crime. Explain to me, how did they insult the culture? A lot of ethnic minorities don't take up local customs in foreign countries. I simply think it is a case of jealousy and nothing else. If you suggest corruption exists in Indonesia, it means the people in power, i.e. the ethnic Indonesians/Javanese are also corrupt. So Indonesians are also corrupt. Only that 97% does not have the money to corrupt them. But if these rules are set by the government then yes the Indonesians should be corrupt in order to win the game. You are angry because the 97% are not in a position to corrupt. I would like to point out to you that every Asian country is corrupt including Japan, China, Thailand. So why don't Indonesians just work harder, save more money and play the same game then there will be no one to blame. Just think, if the Chinese were relegated to 2nd class, it would not matter if they rejected Indonesian culture or not. The Indonesians would be rich and in control, so it doesn't matter what other thought becuase they are rich. Let me turn the siutation the other way around. I know some Indonesians in China, they are not the rich class. Now they do no harm to me, I am wealthier than them, and they don't take up Chinese culture:- Fine. I have no grudges towards them. If they thought Chinese culture was stupid, that is also fine because I don't depend on them for living. If they want to speak with me, OK I will talk with them. So I think when outsiders don't control anything, there is no animosity towards them, right? Good idea?

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maranatha lidya RE:maranatha lidya But it is like that elsewhere 8/19/2003 12:47:32 PM

"Your analogy is not quite correct. The Chinese went to Indonesia with nothing, they did have to save to get to where they are. I don't think the locals gave them free food." It wasn't the local who gave them free food. It was the Dutch. When Indonesia got totally free at 1949, the Chinese and the Dutch were wealthier than any other race or group in Indonesia. For almost 300 years, the Chinese were protected by the Dutch since they were considered as the '2nd class citizens', while the Indonesians were slaves. "Explain to me, how did they insult the culture? A lot of ethnic minorities don't take up local customs in foreign countries. I simply think it is a case of jealousy and nothing else." Okay...the riot in the city of Pekalongan (about 99 or 00)started when some chinese insulted the moslems. It was the holy month of Ramadhan, and it was the time for the moslems to do the 'shaum'(or fasting from sunrise till sunset). Before doing the 'shaum', the moslems usually go to the street, or get together in the mosque and pray together. But anyway, some chinese was disturbed by the noise that came from the mosque and there's a lady who shouted at the people who were praying and tell'em to shut the hell up. You can't tell someone who's praying to God and yell at them and insult them. I'm a christian, and if someone told me to shut up when i'm praying to Jesus, I'll be angry. You told me that you don't mint a group of foreigners stick together in a special community. Well I don't mind too. But what if that community commits serious crimes many times? You told me you knew some Indonesians in China. Ask them about Pachinko (Pasukan China Kota-Urban Chinese Troops), they might tell you something. "If you suggest corruption exists in Indonesia, it means the people in power, i.e. the ethnic Indonesians/Javanese are also corrupt" Yep, you're right again. The Javanese is as bad as Chinese in corruption. And I'm not angry for not being in a position of corrupt. Why should I be angry? Corruption is not the right way to get rich. Instead, I will be embarassed if someone from my group/race commits corruption. What I see is you're trying to justify the corruption commited by the chinese or the javanese. "If they thought Chinese culture was stupid, that is also fine because I don't depend on them for living" okay, maybe it's fine for you. But anyhow, I'd be angry if someone insulted my religion. "Just think, if the Chinese were relegated to 2nd class, it would not matter if they rejected Indonesian culture or not. The Indonesians would be rich and in control, so it doesn't matter what other thought becuase they are rich." In Pekalongan, many rich people got very angry too. But maybe you are right. "So I think when outsiders don't control anything, there is no animosity towards them, right?" I disagree with you. Did I ever mention about people here tend to make stereotypes? Even if the Chinese didn't control the economy, people would still think that they're arrogant. You know, if you go to Boston,USA, you will find many Indonesian students over there. And I don't understand why the Chinese-Indonesians didn't wanna hang out with another Indonesian students, although we had asked them to join us. Even they're very arrogant in the US! The Chinese-Americans are fine, they are nice, but I can't stand Chinese-Indonesians for some reasons!

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