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Subject: Bigger Than Buke And Badass
SYSOP    6/28/2015 7:05:20 AM
 
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trenchsol       6/28/2015 8:50:43 AM
In 'The Last Ship' TV series, there is a brief conflict between Burke class Destroyer and Soviet era Kirov class battlecruiser. I wonder is it realistic ? The conflict was more like a game of cat and mouse, where each ship is trying to discover the location of the other one. It seems to me that more modern Burke should have decisive advantage in that kind of engagement. Is that correct ?
 
 
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Nate Dog    Just an opinion,    6/28/2015 10:06:07 AM
But i find shows like that a little silly,
Neither ship was designed to work in isolation, but as part of a networked war fighting effort, awacs type birds finding the enemy, telemetry feed to launch missiles, anti missile systems to be launched on ELINT early warning on self defence modes.

Single ship standalone unrealistic scenario? Better radar and better self defence missiles and auto cannon would tend to be the winner. Another reason why its unrealistic, is that the Kirov is also a command and control ship, the russians only ever built a few of them and i dont think more than 2 have ever been in service concurrently, and never that many operational at the same time.
There are currently some 50 Burkes in service so call it 30 on station at any one time....
Not a realistic comparison.
 
 
 
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keffler25       6/28/2015 11:27:12 AM
 
Until I see a floating example, I won't know about radars, IR, sonar, ESM, and other critical factors. All electric propulsion is a chimera. The hull is large enough to carry a steam turbine plant powered by a reactor but the addition of electric motor generators and a capacitor you would need for a beam weapon is ridiculous. Mockups seen so far indicate gas turbine macks and presumably direct drive to the propulsor.          
 
Suggested weapons?
 
1x H/PJ-38 130mm Dual Purpose Gun    Nor much different from the Russian version. 
1x Type 1130 CIW  A Chinese version to match phalanx. Ineffective  
1x 24 Cell FL-3000N CIWS Looks like a RAM launcher but lacks the proper cue point and shoot. 
2x Triple Torpedo Launcher Possibly based on the Mark 37. 
4x 18 Cell Decoy Launcher chaffe, balloons et al. Nothing effective.   
96+ VLS Cell (HQ-9, HQ-16, DK-10, YJ-18, YJ-83, CJ-10, YU-8)
 
HQ-9  is derived from the Russian S-300V (decent but defeatable.with US pen-aids0
HQ-16 is derived from the Russian 3S90 Uragon (BUK, definitely defeatable)
DK-10 is a direct ripoff of the Russian R-27 ALAMO (Sparrowski) and is intended to mimic ESSM. Not very good at all in the original and certainly a joke missile for close to medium range.)
YJ-18 is the Chinese version of the KLUB anti-ship missile with all of its portended now known defects and issues amplified by knowen Chinese tech deficiencies.
CJ-10 is the KH-55 with Cantonese markings (acquired from Ukraine as the Russians were not stupid enough to give the PRC access to Tomahawkski.) This actually works.
YU-8 is the Russian developed and Chinese copied VLS version of the US Mark 46 torpedo, or SUBROC.   
 
 
[quote]
 

There is specific belief that some of the technology may be derived from the Ukrainian ISKRA company’s IL-220U that employs the 1L259M 3D monopulse emitter used in the land mobile ZOO PARK-2 weapon location system, but so far this has been refuted by the Ukrainians.

The Type 346 (originally believed to be Type 382) has also been referred to as the Shipborne Active Phased Array Radar System (SAPARS) and is installed on two Type 052C FFG Luyang II hulls, LANZHOU (170) and HAIKOU (171).

To date no parametric detail is known to have been overtly reported but if it does sport the 1L220-U front end, then it operates within NATO F-Band (3 ~ 4 GHz) and operating with the sub-band 3.0 ~ 3.4 GHz would accord with current ITU regulations although some sources suggest it might function in G-band (5,250 ~ 5,950 MHz), which has been favoured by the Chinese in a number of systems. 
 
2x Unknown slots (possibly for more CIWS or active EW systems-mainly jammers, probably Russian  and adapted from 'acquired' Ukraine examples.) 
 
Am I afraid of the Type 055? No. it's mostly Russian navy tech circa 1985 and meat on the table.    
 
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trenchsol       6/28/2015 12:05:20 PM
"The Last Ship" is post-apocalyptic series. Those two warships might have been the only ones which survived the apocalypse on the whole planet. Burke destroyer is fictional "USS Nathan James" and captain is successfully evading direct confrontation with battlecruiser.
 
 
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HR    We just do not know...   6/28/2015 5:01:11 PM
You can't make comparisons between ships like a High-school kid would by just measuring how much they weight or counting the number of weapons it carries. For one thing we do not know how well they work or if all. Too many things on those ships are simply copies.
 
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keffler25       6/28/2015 6:39:47 PM
Nobody compared anything. What was done was a platform analysis to obtain a sense of what the platform was intended to do. Troll's idiocy in yellow. Inanity in red. 
 
The analysis by the way shows a closer match of the type 055 to a Ticonderoga than an Arleigh in purpose. 
 
This is a carrier bodyguard ship. 
. For one thing we do not know how well they work or if all. Too many things on those ships are simply copies.
 
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jessmo_24       6/29/2015 2:59:42 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Zumwalt Keff how do you think this chinese ship would do in a engagement with a Burke? Either in a blockade breaking situation, or a escort engagement, when things heat up and both sides Receive word to engage. Do you think Zumwalt, will be a big enough improvement over a Burke to be called a next gen ship?
 
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keffler25       6/29/2015 8:13:08 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Zumwalt Keff how do you think this chinese ship would do in a engagement with a Burke? Either in a blockade breaking situation, or a escort engagement, when things heat up and both sides Receive word to engage. Do you think Zumwalt, will be a big enough improvement over a Burke to be called a next gen ship?
 
I don't understand the question. Do what? Sink? Act as the center of a surface action group? Bodyguard a carrier? Act independently?
 
1. Right now we have an EW mockup of a Type 055's superstructure sitting out on a Chinese test range for calibration trials to test mutual electronic interference of several different ESM systems, as well as to sort of map its signal return and radiate systems. That is all we have physically to measure.
 
2. I've given you an educated guess, based on what we see the Chinese packed aboard their carrier and their Type 052 frigates what this 'destroyer' might carry as sensors and weapon systems. It's skinpy (like most Chinese surface combatants, and totally unlike Russian vessels) on the ASW systems, but has aped without true understanding the two to three layer active defense measures that US ships carry for anti-air warfare. The Type 055, if it continues the type 052 pattern, will by an air-warfare cruiser version of  the Chinese frigate.. .    .     
 
3. I originally expected that it could be more like an updated Slava in the Russian sense if the Chinese installed the proper OTH  radars and proper type heavyweight surface to surface missiles for such a function, but now that I've seen the superstructure and the apparent billboard mounts for air defense PESA radars, I'm convinced it's an aircraft carrier bodyguard ship.  Or it could be a command ship for an independent surface action group. It's not equivalent to a Zumwalt, (which is a floating arsenal ship and land attack specialist platform.) at all.  
 
The type 055 ship if placed inside anything the USN would understand would be an air defense escort for an amphibious warfare group or aircraft carrier task force and would be tied into the overall fleet network by telemetry links to satellites, underwater sensor platforms and aircraft. Independent single ship operations would be suicide outside such an integrated onion defense. It's too high value to risk that way.    
 
Within the proper fleet environment, I expect that it would be about as effective as its Russian equivalent, the Pyotr
Veliky. Not very. Well about the same as the USS California guided missile cruiser of the 1980s vintage, not very effective at all..    
 
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HR    jessmo   6/29/2015 4:43:29 PM
The Zumwalt is a land attack vessel. At least for now. It carries the missiles in its perimeter to free up the center line of the ship for the installation of large naval guns; with out this sleight of hand there would not be enough structural support for the guns or space for their large magazines.
 
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HR    jessmo   6/29/2015 4:48:59 PM
Also, it has a tumblehome hull that fell out of favor because if the ship is hit and starts taking water and sinking it actually will loose buoyancy instead of gaining it with a traditional hull. They went to this sacrifice in order to eliminate wakes and radar cross section... ample helicopter capacity and stern ram all point to a ship that will work close to shore in support of amphibs. None of these features means that it cannot do other things too but they are the special ones.
 
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