not to put too fine a point on it. but all the talk about armoured hulls and decks ignores the simple fact that an effective airburst or cluster munition attack at or above mast height can invoke a weapons response-mobility kill by shredding the comms platforms/masts/towers.

It does make me happy that you agree with me :) http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/8-8488.asp

"It does make me happy that you agree with me :)" I made an identical observation approx 2 years ago on here but I can;t find the damn link. funnily enough it was another post about doing a "Lazarus" on the Wisconsin as a digital arsenal ship. ;)

I'll testify that gf posted that in the past. It actually agrees with Fitz's position based on the USS WORDEN incident. And they are both right to a degree. However, an airburst against a modern DDG for example, will likely leave it still in fighting shape. A single airburst of even a large weapon (500lbs?), will not stop a ship that is part of CEC network for delivering a response. It will knock out some systems, but not likely to wipe out all UHF links and satcom links. We used to carry a portable UHF transciever for just such an eventuality. And since then portable satellite comm has become soup de jour. You may destroy part of some sensors (airburst will not likely take out the SLQ-32) and the choppers with all their sensors can get in the air while it will be a pain, we'll get by and still whack the guys that done it to us.

I'll testify that gf posted that in the past. No need. Think I found it. IMV the better solution is not SDB's on larger surface vessels - it should be cluster frags. If you can shred the top deck and cut up the comms, then you have a mobility kill. After that you can drop whatever you want on it. The only way to protect the vessel after that is via manpads or sister ships etc.... - gf http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/8-5673.asp I was just happy that somebody adressed the same issue directly. This thread has been a very enjoyable read.

" However, an airburst against a modern DDG for example, will likely leave it still in fighting shape. A single airburst of even a large weapon (500lbs?), will not stop a ship that is part of CEC network for delivering a response. It will knock out some systems, but not likely to wipe out all UHF links and satcom links. We used to carry a portable UHF transciever for just such an eventuality. And since then portable satellite comm has become soup de jour. You may destroy part of some sensors (airburst will not likely take out the SLQ-32) and the choppers with all their sensors can get in the air while it will be a pain, we'll get by and still whack the guys that done it to us." it may be an unfortunate analogy - but in CEC/ForceNET terms, if you manage to frag the comms for one vessel, but in real terms all you do is disrupt the node for a point in time. All the other vessels are going to overlap and start compensation. In a non Aegis/CEC/ForceNET fleet, you can kiss that puppy goodbye...

Agreed. That is why the USS WORDEN is such a bad example compared to a modern DDG. I have no reason to believe this, but my guess is there are multiple comm antennas some of which are retracted and protected against all but the nastiest ASMs.

"but my guess is there are multiple comm antennas some of which are retracted" if you can do it with a B2 and an F-117 - you sure as hell can do it on something bigger... ;)

1)  A 5900lb missile (5900kg?) when launched does not weigh 5900 at impact.  1000+ of fuel is gone. The rest of its structure, warhead aside, closely resembles a modern airframe, which you can put a fist, or at least a penknife through if you try really hard.  Like throwing a half-full beer can at a car door - it might not even break the window let alone dent the door.

2)  CWIS uses DU ammo which is pyrophoric.  Sounds like a good way to "destroy" the missile through ignition.

3)  A shredded-up-by-20mm Zero or Baka seems like a good way to kill a destroyer or even bother a carrier.  Less so against a BB.  Set off the self-destruct of your AS-4, Yakhont, etc., at 1km in front of the (IIRC) 19" armor belt or 17" superstructure and I believe I will sleep well behind it.

4)  I question whether all the bits of a Mach 3 missile, pushed by a rocket, will be as stable as a 300mph WWII airplane pulled by a propeller.

5)  It's patently obvious that a BB converted to an arsenal ship - call it BBX - would include numerous upgrades including sensor suite and other electronics, which equally obviously would be armored, retractable, redundant, etc., etc.

6)  On the premise that a) the carrier must be protected at all costs b) all escorts ESPECIALLY the new "stealth" ones are much smaller targets than the carrier EXCEPT a BBX.  If a BBX is x vulnerable to some commie wunderweapon, the carrier is at least 2x as vulnerable, the other escorts at least 10x.  An if an escort is X targetable, the carrier is 10x targetable; the only other thing more than 10x targetable (other than decoys, EW, etc) is BBX. 

Therefore either the carrier is targeted preferentially, is hit and suffers or dies, and such escorts as are hit, die; or the BBX is targeted preferentially, and very possibly survives, while carrier and escorts are (relatively) untouched.

7)  If carrier survivability depended on size and stealth they would be made out of fiberglass and be 3" long.  They are neither, therefore other means of defense are used.  EW, antimissiles, etc.  These MIGHT help defend the BBX.

8)  A fragment attack on the superstructure as a soft kill - will not this happen to any other ship so attacked?  Will not BBX be as well or better protected than any other?  Sorry, is the SPY-1D of a Burke or Tyco encased in six feet of concrete?

9)  Amusingly in WWII - German radar had trouble with B-17s:  interpreted its huge size as 2 planes and cycled between each half, futzing the shot.  Who's to say the BBX with sensors at front, middle and rear of superstructure (itself bigger than many escorts), or even at bow and stern, will have them all taken out with one shot?

10)  I have heard talk about the battleship fans having their wallets in the game.  You mean Lockmart or Bath Iron Works doesn't?  I don't know about you, fellas, but I've been hearing a lot of bad press about the shipbuilding game lately.  Reduces the enthusiasm for a new hull design.

11)  Proof of the pudding is in the eating.  What have we learned from SinkEx's on BB vs CV?  Of course no one who knows could say so, ha ha.