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Subject: Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?
Griffin    7/4/2006 5:10:50 PM
What are members thoughts about the Stryker MGS vehicle going ahead, or being cancelled? After all, this was a Liberal Defence Minister's program to replace our tanks and condemned severely, and from a guy who said he didn't know about the Dieppe Raid and confused Vichy and Vimy.
 
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BFD15    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/4/2006 9:36:07 PM
No, the rumours have been circulating for about a week that Gen. Leslie has asked that the MGS program be cancelled. It was also reported in the Toronto Star today that the Leopards will be returned to service and soldier on until 2015. I would think that with the defence minister, CDS and head of the army all former armour guys that Canada will soon be rejoining the rest of the world in the MBT business. It is interesting to note, that all of the ingredients will be available in 2015 for Canada to send an armour based task group to some trouble spot in the world to give a good dose of the maple leaf. In my role as arm-chair general I see a task force of the BHS (amphibious assault ship) accompanied by two JSS carrying a mix of cyclones and possibly chinooks escorted by several Halifax class frigates and a fully functional Victoria class submarine depositing a 600-1000 soldiers backed by LAVIIIs and Leo's on the beach of some despot nation in need of some peacemakers to set things straight, by force if necessary. These troops would be further augmented by mech troops flown in by our globemasters and supplied by our rejuvinated Herc's. All of the above will be possible at least in an equipment sense in the year 2015 based on the spending spree announced this week. But really that's just me looking through rose colored glasses, we will have to wait and shoot.
 
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Ehran    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/5/2006 12:05:41 PM
i nominate zimbabwe as the despot nation of choice.
 
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Griffin    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/5/2006 11:44:07 PM
The removal of the MBT's from the army's chest of options was a bad one from the start, based more on Liberal idealogy that also included strategic heavy airlift as a bad thing, than on either military experience both past and current, or even based on common sense when weighing the threat elements to our soldiers in combat situations. Especially in light of more MOUT type of conflicts that we are likely to be involved in, and the fact that even 3rd world nation despots have MBT's. Our guys sure as hell could have used them in the former Yugoslavia and many times since then, if for no other purpose but to wave the big stick and let the bad guys think twice about getting stupid. Can you imagine if we did a Trojan Horse project up IED Alley in Afghanistan, where we had a transporter with a square canvass side and top to cover over a Leo, send it into an area where they would be expected to be hit, with the usual cover force of LAVIII, and smaller vehicles, and then when the Taliban-Al Qaeda types attack, drop the canvass and role out the tank. Now that would be switching the ambusher to the ambushee. I'm sure that 105mm rounds and MG rounds coming in their direction from a rampaging tank would make them very happy.
 
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BFD15    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/6/2006 11:13:43 AM
Griffin, Canada did have 5 Leo's in the former Yugo. check out this link for a report on how well they did in comparison to the Italian Centauro (MGS type) vehicle. link I like your trojan horse idea, I would imagine the Taliban know what comes and goes in the country so sneaking in a leo would be problematic. " Them there hills have eyes." As far as I can tell there are still 44 Leopards in service and another 70 still in war stocks so if 1 was needed it could be sent, although it will be another year until one of our new C-17s will be available to fly it over there.
 
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BFD15    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/6/2006 11:16:28 AM
Sorry I forgot to add, with the link about the Leopard report you have to scroll down to page 56 to see what I was talking about.
 
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Ehran    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/6/2006 12:39:31 PM
i kinda doubt the taliban would be any more scared of a leopard than they would be of a lav 3. what would be nice is to get some of the british apache's for example or more tubes of that nice new 155 arty deployed over there.
 
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Lawman    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/6/2006 1:02:45 PM
If you want to give the Taliban guys a shock with your convoy, just rig one or two of the trucks as guntrucks - a couple of miniguns, .50cals, Mk19s and M72s would certainly be enough to upset anyone who comes knocking! As soon as they show themselves, off comes the canvas, and they are on the receiving end of massive firepower. Even a simple rig of M72s with thermobaric warheads would give more than sufficient firepower. Personally, I think the emphasis should be on having something along the lines of a regimental combat team, i.e. an infantry battalion in LAV-3s, a parachute company or two, and a company or two of tanks. That would be a large enough force to be complete - especially if you include a few HIMARS and some M777s.
 
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BFD15    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/6/2006 2:12:12 PM
Of course all of these ideas are nice to imagine here in our comfy computer chairs, but I think it is hard to argue with success. At present our soldiers have not lost an engagement with the taliban yet. It would appear The LAVIII's et al. are kicking some serious butt as it is.
 
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Griffin    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/6/2006 10:35:24 PM
BFD15, thanks for the bulletin referral. I was thinking more of in terms of the Medac Pocket and before that battle when we could have used a Sqn. or two of Leo's there. It is only a miracle we didn't have serious casualties in the Medac Pocket because we didn't properly support our troops. At least by the time we moved into Kosovo and the US and NATO were committed some heavy firepower including our Hornets were brought in belatedly.
 
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Griffin    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/6/2006 10:40:45 PM
Lawman, I like your devious thinking of wanting to put a hurt on the enemy by reversing the tables. I had also thought along these lines, but opted for the Leo as it would not just be static but hunt them down off road if necessary. Either plan would work for me though. Always give the enemy something to think about how we are going to turn the tables on them. I should have added that I'd also have a few pairs of Apache's and 'Spooky' available for follow up.
 
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Griffin    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/6/2006 10:43:46 PM
Ehran: "i kinda doubt the taliban would be any more scared of a leopard than they would be of a lav 3." Trust me there is nothing more frightening than a tank barring down on your position. The LAVIII 25mm are weak sisters by comparison to the 105mm main gun plus the MG, and the ability to take damage is far easier with the lighter armed LAV. "what would be nice is to get some of the british apache's for example or more tubes of that nice new 155 arty deployed over there." It would even be better if we had our own fixed wing and rotary gunships, with more tubes as you suggested, amongst many other assets like the German built Puma to work off road with the Leo's.
 
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Ehran    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/7/2006 12:15:18 PM
in this sort of thing the biggest problem is typically trying to find someone to put the boots to. that's where the wheeled lav's shine compared to tanks. sides i've done vehicle maintenance and repairs on tracked veh and i feel deep sympathy for anyone splitting a track in 50 C weather.
 
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Ehran    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/7/2006 12:19:01 PM
you know if we wanted to be total sob's about things we could create a canadian ghurka reg't and deploy them. set them up a nice r and r camp down by the waziristan border say. i'm sure they could find something to do with their time off hehe.
 
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Lawman    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/7/2006 12:36:24 PM
Ehran, that is actually a good idea, create a good sized Ghurka regiment, and you could keep a good number deployed all the time. They would certainly be well suited for the fighting in Afghanistan, and given the availability of suitable people, manning the unit should not be a problem. Perhaps form the regiment up into a series of reinforced rifle companies (c.250-350 troops), allowing for three or four such units, which should afford suitable rotation of the units.
 
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Ehran    RE:Will the Stryker MGS go ahead?   7/8/2006 2:37:08 PM
back in the day i've read the british deployed ghurka rifles into 'stan. the afghans did not enjoy that at all as unlike the british regs the ghurkas were quite at home scrambling the hills and rocks frequently popping up in the most inconvenient places.
 
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