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Subject: Welcome to the torture club
Panther    10/29/2007 8:59:50 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071029/wl_nm/afghan_canada_dc By David Ljunggren Mon Oct 29, 2:55 PM ET OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada brushed off allegations on Monday that Taliban members captured by Canadian troops and handed over to Afghan authorities had been tortured, saying the militants often made false claims of mistreatment. Canada's minority Conservative government, which ran into serious trouble when faced with similar accusations earlier in the year, signed a deal with Kabul in May allowing Canadian officials unlimited access to prisoners. Ottawa said the deal would combat torture. But the French-language daily La Presse said on Monday it had found three prisoners who alleged inmates had been beaten with bricks and cables, given electric shocks, deprived of sleep and had their nails torn out. "We do expect these kind of allegations from the Taliban. It is their standard operating procedure to engage in these kinds of accusations. I'd caution ... against taking them as the word of the truth," government minister Peter Van Loan told Parliament. Opposition politicians said there were serious doubts as to whether the May deal could protect prisoners. "We now have headlines in the paper that suggest Canada is facilitating a process of torture. This is extremely serious. It's also serious under international law," said Jack Layton, leader of the left-leaning New Democratic Party. Human rights experts, speaking earlier this year, said Canadian soldiers could be guilty of war crimes because they transferred the detainees at a time when Ottawa was aware that Afghan authorities regularly tortured prisoners. International conventions prohibit a country from handing over prisoners if there is reason to suspect abuse. The three suspected Taliban members said they had been captured by Canadian troops, given a document that said torture was no longer used in Afghanistan and then transferred to the Afghan secret police. "The people from the secret service tore it (the document) up and threw it in my face. They tortured me for 20 hours. I protested and said the Canadians had promised that nothing would happen to me," La Presse quoted one of the three men as saying. "They replied: 'We're not in Canada, we're at home. The Canadians are dogs!"' he said. La Presse said it had conducted the interviews in Sarpoza prison in the southern city of Kandahar, where Canada's 2,500-strong military mission is based.
 
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Panther       10/29/2007 9:15:28 PM
Whether any of this is true or absolutely false propaganda, doesn't really matter anymore. What matter's is the battle of the narrative and the negative words (Like torture) is starting to be turned and used against you in the international scene. You guy's have my sympathies (though i haven't expected any in return from other countries for five years now), because no matter how much of the truth is on your side... the great lies will always be twisted against your every efforts to trump them. Good luck!
 
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Ehran       10/30/2007 3:48:25 PM
panther we have cut a deal with the afghans to allow us access to prisoners taken by canadian troops and then turned over to the afghans so we can document and hopefully prevent prisoner abuse.  the afghans have failed to live up to their obligations under the deal and have been outed for their failure. 
 
this is nothing like the abuse of prisoners the us gov't is responsible for.
 
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Herald1234    Naivete.   10/30/2007 5:01:02 PM
Just keep drinking that kool-aid, Ehran. Canadians don't do what is necessary.
 
Herald 
 
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Panther       10/30/2007 8:09:00 PM

panther we have cut a deal with the afghans to allow us access to prisoners taken by canadian troops and then turned over to the afghans so we can document and hopefully prevent prisoner abuse.  the afghans have failed to live up to their obligations under the deal and have been outed for their failure. 

 

this is nothing like the abuse of prisoners the us gov't is responsible for.



Ah... but i think you miss my point ehran? It doesn't matter anymore what you think or how the Canadian government goes about preventing such occurences, regardless of the fact's. What matters now, is that now your country... among many other western countries, and of course... who can forget us, will be irrationallly and dishonestly singled out as a bunch of blood-thirsty people hell bent on torturing poor, helpless terrorists, regardless of the truth, as you so unsubtly proved my point for me, thus: this is nothing like the abuse of prisoners the us gov't is responsible for. That's nice.. keep spreading the love! 
 Like i said, i am not into the game of pointing fingers at anyone. But as for your country, you guy's have my profound sympathy in this media war...... you blood thirsty torturer you! 
 
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Ehran       10/31/2007 3:27:46 PM

Just keep drinking that kool-aid, Ehran. Canadians don't do what is necessary.

 

Herald 



if it was necessary or even helpful you might have a point.  if you want to talk about doing what's necessary and the failure to do so let's take this up in 10 years or so when we discuss the american gov't hasty and premature exit from iraq with particular emphasis on the consequences of that exit.
 
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Herald1234       10/31/2007 3:36:33 PM




Just keep drinking that kool-aid, Ehran. Canadians don't do what is necessary.



 



Herald 





if it was necessary or even helpful you might have a point.  if you want to talk about doing what's necessary and the failure to do so let's take this up in 10 years or so when we discuss the american gov't hasty and premature exit from iraq with particular emphasis on the consequences of that exit.



That will about the same time Canada is kicked out of Kosovo?
 
That'll be the day.
 
Like I said, keep drinking that kool aid, Ehran.  
 
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Ehran       11/1/2007 2:45:02 PM
so i take it you are in favour of the assorted crap the bushies have the usg doing like torturing prisoners along with dissappearing inconvenient people etc then herald?  americans are going to be busy glossing over this presidency for a very long time to preserve their illusions about themselves.
 
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Panther       11/2/2007 1:40:34 AM

so i take it you are in favour of the assorted crap the bushies have the usg doing like torturing prisoners along with dissappearing inconvenient people etc then herald?  americans are going to be busy glossing over this presidency for a very long time to preserve their illusions about themselves.


 
 
It never really has mattered what i am in favor for or against. Most within the world usally makes up their minds with the first shrill headline. Case in point, your last sentence pretty much answered your own question for me! Your mind was made up a very long time ago. So why bother in discussing that issue any further, in what i think about it?
 
 
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Herald1234       11/2/2007 2:10:54 AM

so i take it you are in favour of the assorted crap the bushies have the usg doing like torturing prisoners along with dissappearing inconvenient people etc then herald?  americans are going to be busy glossing over this presidency for a very long time to preserve their illusions about themselves.


The trouble is not that the Bush administration hasn't been fighting the shadow war at all, Ehran; the trouble is that the Bush administration hasn't been fighting the shadow war WELL.

And your trouble is that you are naive, Ehran. If you think for one moment that I don't know about the crap the US had to pull to keep the lid on this slaughterhouse of a planet for the last fifty years, then you must really think I am one of those guys who believes in anybody's mythology and propaganda.

I have no illusions. NONE.

Herald  
 
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Panther       11/2/2007 3:09:44 AM
Whoops... i thought the question was directed at me. After going over ehran's post again.... Ehran, either i have no perceptive abilities to speak of; Or perhaps... a little punctuating on your part wouldn't kill you from time to time?
 
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