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Subject: if China invaded North America what would happen?
kuznet    4/25/2004 11:50:11 PM
Seriously I know this is ludicrous, since China does not have the logistical capability let alone the transport assets. But let's assume they did what do y'all think would be the result on both sides. I mean invasion of USA/Canada.. Remember for how bad the PRC is they still have 20+ nukes longrange, over 200+ su27/30's. X2 Sovremenny's with sunburn missles that are designed to hit naval assets. Lastly they have all those cheap ming subs+ few kilos to create havoc in the Taiwan corrider for us CVN fleets. No doubt the USA could mount massive destruction with the press of a few buttons, let alone the navy and usaf also. I see massive casualties if nukes were launched on Bejing, Shanghai and all other major centres. Same goes for LA,and all the US west coast to Vancouver BC.. crazy thought if USA defends Taiwan this could happen? ^_* I hope this science fiction never materializes. NYET btw I am in North America..
 
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sentinel28a    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/3/2004 11:58:56 PM
Not to mention the fact that, to have any impact, the PLA would have to pack the ships so tightly that half their men would die of suffocation (or disease...dysentery spreads quickly under those conditions, as does cholera) before they even got close to the US. And even if they did make it ashore, they'd be so exhausted that their fighting abilities would be greatly reduced. In any case, I don't see how occupying a single port would change things. The port would be sealed off, while general war is declared on China. More likely would be commando raids on military bases--hit and fade to tie down American troops. Even this would be rather ineffective after a short time, as the troops ran low on ammo or were hunted down by locals. An attempt to hide among a city wouldn't work very well--we Americans fight and hiss at each other, but when someone hits the US directly, we tend to unite against the threat until we annilihate it, i.e. 9/11.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/4/2004 1:29:08 AM
I hate to burst your bubble but US intelligence is not all-knowing or we would have found the WMD by now. You don't have to pack troops into crates you can just put them into large cargo holds. You also think the PLA would assemble a huge army on the docks in broad daylight in full uniform. Getting troops and their gear onto a ship would be fairly easy by just having random "dock workers" and such go onto the ships and not come back. The objective wouldn't be to to take LA or SF but some small town on the coast.
 
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SC29112    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/4/2004 2:35:02 AM
Well let's beat a dead horse, shall we. Now comes the big question - IF (i have to emphasize this is one BIG IF) all those troops/equip could get loaded without raising a dust cloud, and therefore (big stretch of imagination) get across the wide Pacific (thsi being a single ship of course, 2 or more would guarantee a red flag - pun intended). Where do you land and off-load? Big cargo ships can't come into port just anywhere - I am sure the Coast Guard has some pretty tight rules about that - and only a few ports that I know of (Seattle/Tacoma/Portland/San Fran/Long Beach/San Diego/Honolulu). Any sort of amphib landing is out of the question - seriously doubt PRC has that capability. So they are stuck with using port facilities. At worst, if enough troops can be off-loaded fast enough, and take out the Longshoremen Union (even that is not a given), this "invasion" may only be able to take over the immediate dock area. Then whatever air power is close enough could take care of the rest, with hardly any threat to civilian populations. You just may take note that nearly every major port also has a major military base nearby as well. As I said, getting enough troops off-loaded to control the immediate port area is about as far as this fantasy escapade would get - forget any heavy support equipment. Now I just happened to mention that it's almost a certainty that some F-16/FA-18 Sq can be armed and in the air before a division could be off-loaded. Just for s and grins, there just might be a Sq of A-10s or a couple of AC-130's in the area -oh now, that would be sweeeet.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/5/2004 8:38:05 AM
stage one: troops and light equipment are loaded into special containers at various military bases onto civilian trucks and sends them to a few State Owned ports. This is easy to do, soldiers stand around and find suitable trucks, tell them where to go and what to do and a quick reminder of what happens to loose lips. No complaint is given, just hushed obedience, this is China. second stage: everything is loaded at the SOE docks (things are easier to control here and there are no occasional foreigners wandering around like at the big international terminals). third stage: Ships go to sea, once at a safe distance, the troops disembark their boxes and get into their racks in various parts of the ship and get back into shape. fourth stage: ship arrives off of US and far away from big cities, naval bases and coast guard stations. fifth stage: troops disembark on rubber rafts. No vehicles are carried, just light infantry weapons, supplies and sarin. sixth stage: on the beach outside of some small town late at night, by the time the civies wake up the phone lines are cut, gun shops, gas stations and roads into and out of the town are taken. Word will get out and there will be a gun battle, but mention of sarin from the PLA commander creates peace. stage seven: while the nat'l guard and everyone else is on their way the civies are hoarded into the local high school gymnasium with said sarin. PLA makes demands that US back out of Taiwan defence, s. China sea or whatever.
 
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displacedjim    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/5/2004 9:05:25 AM
Stage Eight Plus: Chinese perimeter is reduced by U.S. forces until it's just the high school. Negotiations and/or military action occurs until a resolution is achieved one way or the other. No Chinese troops are allowed to re-embark any ships sent to replace the sunken or captured original transport(s). Meanwhile, if the Congress pulls together and finds one collective set of balls, they declare war for the first time in over 60 years. Otherwise, as is more likely even in this utterly clear cut, egregious scenario, they wuss out again and merely authorize the president to act swiftly and decisively (thus retaining their spineless "high ground" position to enable hindsight criticism and Monday-morning quarterbacking). The USN and USAF go nuts on the PLAN everwhere it can be found, including in port, until nary a PLAN ship can be found afloat. Likewise for Chinese merchant shipping (which ought to bother the CCP more), especially all ships like the one(s) used in the raid. Preferably this includes every vessel under Chinese ensign, starting with the biggest and working our way down. The SOE docks (I don't know what those are) get the crap bombed out of them. Chinese air defenses in and around all such naval bases and port facilities are reduced to smoking holes. Yeah, that was worth it for the Chinese. Displacedjim
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/5/2004 11:17:14 AM
Perhaps, but if a battle over one of their "territorial rights" is taking place and they are on loosing end (and loosing badly) it is an avenue they might look at. Stage 9 The US has begun sinking every PLAN ship, picking out every plane in the sky and sinking the merchant fleet. This definitely threatens the party's existence, they threaten the US with nukes if the US doesn't stop immediately. You should know that the Party sees its existence as paramount, even above lives of a billion chinese.
 
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displacedjim    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/5/2004 1:39:44 PM
Stage Ten of "If Displacedjim Ran the Show": After and only after we've sunk dozens of ships or more, and smashed the dock facilities we think they embarked from and most others similar to them, we probably would say, "Okay, fine, we'll stop now." If that hasn't happened yet, we say, "Not yet, but soon, when we're ready to stop. This isn't about overthrowing the CCP... yet. Keep it that way." Just because they have nukes doesn't mean we must not attack back, hard. In fact, if they threaten us like that, it's time to dust off first strike plans on their ICBM sites, while telling them clearly that we are punishing them for what they did, that we will stop punishing them when we decide it's enough, and that we will incinerate them if they try anything more against us. If there's a way in Chinese to say that as a non-parental adult might to a child they've encountered, then I'd say it that way. Furthermore, it goes without saying that a generous estimate of the damage caused in America as a result of their raid and our crushing of it will be seized from any Chinese assets here in the States. Until further notice, any Chinese ship entering American waters will be stopped, crew and passengers removed, and sunk. Also, under some sort of "trading with the enemy" rationale, all foreign trade with China will be halted. Displacedjim, a.k.a. Jacobus Ceasar
 
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SC29112    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/5/2004 2:22:43 PM
Fantasy, that maybe with a lot of luck could be conceivable - up until stage 5. For stage 5, the PLA must have some extensive amphib training. Not happening today - maybe some river-crossing exercisies. Secondly, with day-to-day satelite tracking of ship movements (notably for drug enforcement), any big cargo ship that just happened to "park" itself in a location out of the norm (i.e. nor major port) becomes immediately suspect for inspection by Coast Guard. And most importantly is tides and weather. The English channel was close enough to make a go/no-go decision in 1944. A cargo ship crossing the wide Pacific will be blind as to real conditions until they arrive at debarkation (again, without extensive training is needed which the PLA don't have in this area conditions would have to be absolutely perfect). So now you introduce Sarin? What, against a small town of no military significance? At least the Japenese had a military objective. Even a bear wants honey to risk stirring up a bee's nest. What exactly is the strategic intent of this "invasion" other than pissing off the U.S.? That's again IF such an invasion could be pulled off due to a complete let down of day-to-day intel, ability of cargo ship to reach it's destination - a location not normal for large ships, lay anchor in suspected location without CG interest, perfect weather/tides, for a night-time amphibious assault on an ocean beach (entirely different than a river-crossing). Sell it to Hollywood - after all, the movie Red Dawn made money off of fantasy as well.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/6/2004 12:46:12 AM
This invasion would not be pointless, everyone has ignored my posting as to why China would do it. If we were really serving it to them over Taiwan or South China Sea it could be a move to get us to back off. Trashing the majority of the PLAN, PLAAF and elements of the PLA in a regional war would be enough of a threat to the Party.
 
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SC29112    RE:This is a rather unpleasant topic ...   5/6/2004 1:48:30 AM
I never addressed whatever paranoia might influence Chinese political leadership into a rash adventure. Just the fantasy involved with your cargo ship invasion of the U.S.
 
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