You are wrong that secularism killed nobody. Au contraire. You need to read a few books on French Revolution.

 

My point exactly, I did not say my system is better than urs I just said consistently there is no proof that any system is right, and to each his own-whatever it maybe. CJH seems to think he has the answer. And u r right , religion is nver a good debate.

 

Even the founding fathers were secular as agreed by Bill O'Reiley--I needn't say a word more.

CJH,

 

Why ask an explicitly theological question in a civil, secular forum? The only answers possible are theological in nature, and the only supporting texts are scriptural.  You and I might agree on the validity of certain sources of scripture, but I'm not sure anyone else in the forum would. A question like this is a rhetorical tarbaby.

 

timon phocas

Then tell me how many people died, and how many royalists were driven away from the former colonies in order to implement the secularist institution? Even though, George Washington said: "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."

 

If secularism is such a unbreakable value, find, just implement it fairly and bar all religions from government buildings and activities, not just Christianity. For example, this should be an outrage for fundamental secularists:

 

www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1439282020080415

 

But you didn't hear any. That's the kind of hypocrisy and  and double standard that you are promoting. The Founding Fathers know what secularism means, but you just want to beat down Christianity.

Hitler wasn't a communist.  Christians certainly claim to know what is best for everyone, which often starts with giving over their personal lives and property to the church.  Christians also claim to know the will of God not just for their lives but others as well, which is blasphemy.

 

 

And we start racking up the murders committed by Christians against Muslims and Jews in the Middle East as well as the near extinction of the ancient American civilizations (in the name of God and gold), the numbers certainly do pile up. 

 

Btw, China has never really been communist, its always been feudal and Yelli knows this.

This topic is just a horrible, horrible joke.  No, Secularists are not enemies of God.  Its right there in the definition of the word.

 

1.	of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.

2.	not pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to sacred ): secular music.

3.	(of education, a school, etc.) concerned with nonreligious subjects.

4.	(of members of the clergy) not belonging to a religious order; not bound by monastic vows (opposed to regular ).

5.	occurring or celebrated once in an age or century: the secular games of Rome.

6.	going on from age to age; continuing through long ages.

 

There is nothing included in that definition that says its "against" Religion, "suppressing" Religion.  Its simply not religious.  You are conflating "not-God" with "anti-God."  I am believe utterly in secular government for a myriad of reasons, but believe in God.  Its not a contradiction, or wrong.  Its two topics that are, and SHOULD be, completely seperate. 

 

I have my own questions I want to pose all of you agreeing to this ridiculousness.  When did Christianity turn from a religion of openness, welcoming, and charity to one of exclusion?  When you walk around loudly declaring people have "declared wars on christmas/easter/holiday o' the month" and calling them enemies when they dont believe exactly in the specific things you do is that what you really think Christ would do?  I think the Christian message would be far better carried out by living and acting Christ-like instead of throwing the Bible and its verses around like some mis-guided divine hammer.  The fundamentalist Christian faction has somewhere along the way lost its bearings completely.  It is more concerned with who or what it should exclude next instead of transmitting the original message which made Christianity so successful initially. 

Most Christians don't say things like that.  I've never seen anyone turned away from my church (I'm Catholic, BTW).  There's a specific disclaimer in our missal:  "Due to the divisions in Christianity, we unfortunately cannot allow our non-Catholic brothers and sisters to receive Communion.  However, we invite them to participate in all other elements of our celebration."  I've been to Mass in a Lutheran church and felt very welcome; same at a Mormon wedding and baptism.  I think that's probably true of most Christian religions.  It's more than likely true in a Jewish synagogue and quite a few mosques, as well.  (I've never been to a mosque, so I can't say.  The closest I got to one was Louis Farrakhan's place, and understandably I didn't test the waters there.)  Hell, I've got tree-worshipping pagan friends that have gone to church with me.

 

It's people that are the problem.  You can't convince me that Jesus intended the Inquisition to take place, or the terrible religious wars in Europe.  Or for that matter, the Crusades, which both Christians and Muslims made worse despite the efforts of their leaders.  Religion is too often used as a means to achieve secular power.  The Catholic Church made that mistake on several occasions; Osama bin Laden does it now. 

 

To call secular fundamentalists (i.e. militant atheists, I suppose) "enemies of God" is to presume any of us know what God is thinking.  That's impossible.  I'm quite convinced God exists, but I have no idea what He is thinking.  When I read about the rise of Hitler and the pure accidents that put him in power, I have to ask myself, "Why didn't God stop this?"  I don't know.  I may never know.  But I certainly don't presume to know who God considers an enemy and who He doesn't. 

 

I've got one message for secular fundies: don't cram your beliefs down my throat, and I won't do the same to you.  If you're right, I've lost nothing for believing in a God that doesn't exist.  If I'm right, God is merciful.  Hopefully, we both win.

 

BTW, Zoo, the Founding Fathers were very religious.  Even Deists like Franklin and Jefferson frequently made references to Providence; in Franklin's case, he said God most certainly exists, even if Franklin didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God.  (Since Franklin was pretty old at the time, he added that he planned to find out the whole truth rather soon, and that he looked forward to his education.)  America was never intended to be a strictly secular republic, it was just never intended to have a state-sponsored religion.  The Founders believed that religion was none of the federal government's business, and they were right.