"The Greenies have made it almost impossible to manufacture in this country not to mention upgrading coal facilities or nuclear power."

 

You haven't experienced just how bad pollution can get, as most people who bash environmental laws and their enforcement haven't.  You haven't been sick every week with colds and trots just because of the air and the water you bathe in nor have you had real residue come off of the food you wash before cooking.

 

The NIMBY types are typically more to blame than tree huggers as the NIMBYs have more economic clout.  There is plenty of good coal technology that utilities try not to use.  Nuclear requires alot of water using current technology (what ever happened to pebble bed research?) and many areas like Texas, the western regions of the Great Plains and the SW are drying up fast.

I understand you have lived in terribly polluted areas but for the most part the US is pretty clean in comparison. I am not suggesting anything drastic nor did I want this to become an partisan ecological debate. I am under the impression that Clinton signed a bill forbidding new coal plants and the retrofitting of current period in the hopes they would fall into obsolescence. Even if retrofitting would make them cleaner or more efficient. In my industry it was more feasible to send metal parts to Asia for plating due to restrictions. I have heard similar stories with cabinet manufacturers etc etc. 

 

So by your answer I am assuming that even if the dollar was crushed we should not go back to being an industrial powerhouse. IMO that will crush the working stiffs and seriously decline the quality of life in the US.

 

 I feel like we are killing the goose that layed the golden egg

 

 

 

So it was a bad thing to do something about the environment when a river caught fire in the 1960's?

 

Well if you believe that, there may be a job painting radium waiting for you......

 

 

 

 

...because that's the only alternative to the crushing weight of all the environmental, safety, and health-related regulations we have today.

 

Even though warpigs statement was concise ill reiterate since i was quoted. You feel the same way as Nan in regards to industry. We only have two choices burning rivers or importing goods. Is that what you believe? I am amazed if so.

 

If we have rampant inflation, keep our trade deficits where they are, and  spending two trillion on healthcare I feel the middle class will cease to exist as we know it or become a much smaller piece of the pie. If that happens the America i know will also cease to exist. I believe what made America great was the ability for the working stiff to have the accoutrement, live comfortably, and raise his/her family. Even though it was recently politicized the term "hope" was always (IMO) a buzzword for Americans because work ethic, innovation, and  intelligence was always rewarded regardless of class. 

 

Norden, I think the problem is much more deeper than just enviornment laws. How those laws are brought into force is a big driver. I doubt most laws are done for the general welfare of the people. Most laws are lobbied by the big interests as a way of tipping the "market" in their favor. Then you have the NIMBY's that want nuke and coal power, but don't want to see it, smell it, or live within 1,000 miles of it. In regards to our industrial base, the import requirements for most products are surprisingly less restrictive to the export requirements. In other words, not only is it cheaper to import, it is also less complicated with less reporting requirements and less legal consequenses. Just an effect of the the big importers/retailers having more clout at shaping policy than the export driven industries.

 

There is also the inertia of America's mindset which will not change or consider alternatives. We pride ourselves as a free market capitalist nation. If one ever thinks to question any alternatives such as welfare, affordable healthcare, affordable housing, affordable education, trade restrictions, then cries of socialism are bantered about and your idea is summarily dismissed since no one may stand to profit. Many of the great industrial nations have blended  socialist  policies when it comes to alieviating middle class costs which the American middle class is expected to pay for.

 

I don't think the worst will come of the dollar though. Most nations would probably like to see the USA weakened, but I don't think they want to see us out of the picture entirely. Having a USA around is good for them too,  many times with ulterior motives. Also the effect that the US government has over the the US dollar is not absolute. There are probably more dollars outside the USA. I'm watching this carefully though, as it is frightening scenario if the dollar tanks due to the Republicans. :) 

 

 

Thanks for your reply. I see your point and I agree to an extent. Post WWII America by design was to defend Countries militarily to support democracy and quality of life. Instead of being a policeman they were more like the security guards. I dont think S. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Phillipines or Eastern European countries were uncomfortable with that. At the risk of offending some of our strongest allies. I believe that if we went back to worrying about ourselves it would be better it seems no other country is willing to help. If we only have tax deductions for domestic charities, stop funding the UN (or make our commitment 10% more than the mean EU nation) and stop sending US military to help in regards to earthquakes, tsunamis, acts of God, or perils at sea. I could be all for this why send our cash to countries who resent our stature. let the UN pay for medical aid in places such as Africa. Charge full pop for exported pharmeceuticals to impoverished nations. I think this could help us out tremendously and make the US much more utopian.

With the current interest rates, dollar devaluation, health care spending and the fact that oil might not be only traded in dollars could this be the death throes of America. Could we see rampant inflation ala Carter years? If foreign governments stop keeping dollars in reserve and dump our currency onto the market. Is it devastating or just a re-balance. I think it would be good if "Made in America" was returned to its former iconic status but at what cost... The Greenies have made it almost impossible to manufacture in this country not to mention upgrading coal facilities or nuclear power. Anyone here contemplating this scenario or want to give feedback. From my armchair it seems pretty gloomy

If you think about it though, you might see that we are getting what we want and will see that we are wanting what we get.

I was in a service branch in which one voluntarily enlisted. But that didn't stop many people from complaining bitterly about being in it. They joined of their own free will and then complained about it. This is pretty typical of human nature.

 

That's how I see all the angst about where the country is going. We are going where we are going because of choices we have freely made as a society.

 

The leaders we now have are in their positions of power because of us.

 

When we really decide that we want a different direction, it is a simple matter of making the requisite different choices to reach that goal.

 

It's just that simple.

 

It is not about circumstances so much as it is all about volition.

 

It looks as if you are cinfusing different issues. Providing the means of public sanitation or hygene is one issue. Overloading the atmosphere or ground water or surface water with industrial contaminates is another.

 

We are going to live in an environment filled with chemical substances regardless. You can live in the middle of Borneo and do that.

 

What we are talking about here is trading off benefits. If you want a "clean" environment, then you can always live in the middle of the Amazon rainforest. You won't though because you won't find a job there. Humm.

Forest fires fueled by underbrush that the greenies refuse to let anyone clean out aren't all that awesome either, Nan.  Ever been nearly blown off your feet by hurricane-force winds, nearly blinded by smoke, and in the doctor's office three times a week due to asthma complications, due to a forest fire that's well over a hundred miles off? 

 

I have.

 

Responsible environmental laws, like the ones enacted after Lake Erie caught fire, absolutely.  Environmental laws enacted by people who think humans are a blight to Mother Gaia and we were so much more healthy when we lived in caves and ate raw berries, not so much.

 

I find it fascinating that one of the first conservationists in the US was a logger. 

Nitpicking Sentinel and I agree.  They probably see some correlation between controlled burns and the logging industry.

 

But the post Cuyahoga River fire laws, the CWA, CAA,  and other laws have been seriously gutted with exceptions made for certain industries in the name of "competitiveness".  On quality, the US can compete, but environmental regulations do drive up the cost, there is no way around that.  But as China and India start to clamp down on emissions (at least with respect to foreign companies), imported goods will cost more. 

 

Western consumers, in fact all consumers, need to stop thinking that low low prices are a constitutional or God-given right.  We are paying a high cost for low low prices in the form of our health and well being.  Think about that when you have to toss back a fish with bumps on its body.

 

Considering that most of the damage being done to the world's ecosystem is being done by China and other developing countries, I'm thinking they should be the ones who are getting the stink-eye over emissions.

 

Funny you should mention fish.  Montana had a number of streams horribly contaminated by heavy metals from the mining of the late 19th/early 20th centuries.  20 years ago, if you waded in those streams, you were asking for trouble, and you didn't worry about fish with bumps because the fish were all dead.  Today--you can land the most beautiful, succulent rainbow trout in those same streams.  The EPA and Superfund really did it right.

 

And we did it all without cap-and-tax.