The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - November 22, 2009




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
United States Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: How to cut and run from Afghanistan?
YelliChink    10/27/2009 5:56:00 PM
Today's news. This is bad, if not worse.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33489374/ns/world_news-washington_post/

Although cut-and-run is to lose, it might not be as bad if the situation is led to worsen itself. It's better to have a cut-and-run strategy than being forced to leave. The strategy should involve:

1. How to maintain influence after disengagement and retreat.
2. How not to lose too much face.
3. How not to allow Afghanistan fall into chaos.

I with my very limited knowledge and brain power have no idea how to achieve all of the above. But I do know one thing: if the US is going to leave one way or another, it's better to leave now.
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

DarthAmerica       10/27/2009 7:02:10 PM
It's not about cut and run and it isn't about preventing Afghan chaos. Our primary mission there is to deny sanctuary to the international non-state actors that have the capability to export mass casualty attacks on CONUS.

-DA 
 
Quote    Reply

YelliChink       10/27/2009 7:28:54 PM

It's not about cut and run and it isn't about preventing Afghan chaos. Our primary mission there is to deny sanctuary to the international non-state actors that have the capability to export mass casualty attacks on CONUS.




-DA 

Yes, that part of mission is completed. We know where bases of Al Qaeda and Taleban are: tribal area of Pakistan. Afghans' own politics now is a ticking time bomb that may backfire to ISAF. The strategy to establish and support an Afghan national government has so far not succeed, and on fast track to failure.
 
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       10/27/2009 7:40:07 PM




It's not about cut and run and it isn't about preventing Afghan chaos. Our primary mission there is to deny sanctuary to the international non-state actors that have the capability to export mass casualty attacks on CONUS.










-DA 




Yes, that part of mission is completed. We know where bases of Al Qaeda and Taleban are: tribal area of Pakistan. Afghans' own politics now is a ticking time bomb that may backfire to ISAF. The strategy to establish and support an Afghan national government has so far not succeed, and on fast track to failure.

 
That's a bit dramatic. Yes, for now, AQ cannot use Afghanistan for it's purposes. If we leave, that could change.

-DA 

 
Quote    Reply

PPR    New Strategy   10/27/2009 8:39:06 PM
US casualties have clearly surged in Afghanistan.  The press are quick to point to this as a resurgence of the Taliban/failure of US policy.  A better explanation would be a more aggressive US policy, in which US troop move into hostile areas long ignored under President Bush.
 
Bush's strategy was a long-term pragmatic strategy.  Keep enough troops to hold key areas and build up the friendly areas over many years until they are strong enough to move into the Taliban areas.  It had the virtues of producing relatively low casualties and costing little.  The downside was that it allowed the Taliban to consolidate their territory
 
Enter BO.
 
His anti-war base wants the US out of the war at any cost.  Most Americans understand what a disaster it would be to abandon Afghanistan to al Qaeda and its allies.  His response, surge and retreat.  He intends to hit the Taliban hard enough to claim victory and then go home before the Taliban reconstitute.
 
This more aggressive strategy has produced more casualties on both sides.  In coordination with a more agressive Pakistan, the Taliban are being hit on both sides of the border.
A recently publish estimate said the Taliban have no more than 25,000 troops.   Ordinarily this is a pretty small guerilla army.  But they are well entrenched in terrain favorable to the defender.  In theory, the Allies have enough troops to supress an insurgency of that size.  But the defensive terrain is a force multiplier.  Subtract from the US its allies, who restrict their forces from active participation. And their is the undertrained/supported Afghan Army don't measure up to their numbers.  This still leaves the US with an advantage in numbers and technology. 
 
This offensive can do damage to the Taliban, with or without a new "surge" of troops.  The lower number of troops will mean  higher casualties and a longer fight.  The question will be: how much stomach will BO have for the fight?
 
Already his liberal base is screaming.  However, there are two factors that favor his continuing the fight.
1)  Because he campaigned on this issue and has gotten everything he wanted, it is now his war to win or lose.  And presidents who lose don't get re-elected.
2)  Re-election is three years away.  The public will accept the casualties if he is successful.  He has that long to make the casualties go away.
 
Quote    Reply

sentinel28a       10/27/2009 11:51:44 PM
He can also tell the American people that things are going to be tough, but we can win.  This will do much to reassure troops on the ground, the Afghani people, and our allies that we're in it for the long haul.  It will let our enemies know that we're not going to cut and run.  Obama will piss off his "peace at any price" far left base, but they're not going to be the ones who will get him reelected.
 
I will give Obama credit for being a superb orator--he can do this.  The question is, will he?  DA will undoubtedly answer with a wholehearted "yes, he can!"  I'm not so sure, but I'm hoping DA is right and I'm wrong.
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

YelliChink       10/28/2009 12:39:43 AM
I remember what imperial Japanese has done in order to keep Taiwanese aboriginals on the line.
 
They send policemen deep into tribal area. Arrange marriage of aboriginal women with policemen. They invited tribal leaders to Japan, show them their latest military equipment, soldiers and "school that teach people to kill." That didn't work. Several aboriginal tribes rebelled. In one case, as late as 1920s, IJA had to send two division size units,  supported by light artillery and aircraft, even gas, to put the rebels down. That tribe was essentially annihilated and later assimilated into Han.
 
Several decades before that happened, A Qing military commander was tasked to annex eastern part of Taiwan. By that time, eastern part were not administrated by Qing. Qing court became interested in expanding administrative control toward east, after Japan showed interests in taking over the "barbarian lands." The Qing commander first invited young men from a local tribe to a feast, then brutally murdered all of them. That tribe was so intimidated and decimated, that they never showed up in history until recently. The Qing commander then believe that he can intimidate two other tribes into submission. Only for a while, then they rebelled.
 
Afghan tribes are no different. The most stupidest thing, if "winning hearts and minds" is still one of the strategy, you can do is send soldiers to remote villages and start to dig trenches around the base.
 
Nooooooo...... stay away from them. They don't like Taliban either. Whoever get close to them will get burnt, unless you show up and provide free AK-47 and 100 round of ammunition per gun as gift. The harder thing is to try to persuade Kazai to hands off from exerting central control over those remote villages.
 
Quote    Reply

Le Zookeeper       10/28/2009 11:07:21 AM
Most of Alquaida is in Pakistan. The Taleban AQ alliance is alreay formenting unrest in Punjabi Pakistan as people are lining up Canadian, US embassies to leave forever(there are Pakistanis who want a normal life). We maybe seeking to cut and run due to various costs associated(human+deployment) but I think Pakistan instability forces us to stay. Its not an Afghan issue anymore. It never was. Its Pakistan (specifically their nukes).
 
Quote    Reply

Le Zookeeper    Afghanistan as a base perhaps is more inportant than Germany today   10/28/2009 11:16:41 AM
Strategic reach extends to Persian gulf, Chinese funded Gwadar port in Pakistan, Baluchistan, Iran, Pakistan-India mess, China silk road, Tajikistan and other Central Asian states. Militarily it would be foolhardy to give up Afghanistan, but the costs should be reduced. I think its $40/gallon of gas and $750,000 per deployed personnel annually. If these costs were bought down and alliances used to man the AFghan security and reconstruction (think India as the sole whole hearted supporter, but unacceptable to Pakistan) it would be good for the USA and the democratic world. But then the democratic world isn't behaving rationally.
 
We could see a Vietrnam type withdrawal collapse of Pakistn- I posted a longtime ago, that NATO would cut n run in Afghnistan and Pak would fall leading to an invasion in SIndh Pakistan and Afghanistan by Inida to cutoff an advancing Chinese attack into Pakistan North and Afghanistan. A Biblical war is possible.
 
Quote    Reply

Le Zookeeper       10/28/2009 11:37:08 AM

Since the release of Gen Stanley McChrystal?s report on the US effort in Afghanistan a few weeks ago, pundits and policymakers in Washington D.C. have been waiting with bated breath for the outcome of the war room briefings that have been taking place in the White House.

It was rumoured that the much-awaited decision regarding the provision of an additional 40,000 troops requested by Gen McChrystal, who is the top US commander in Afghanistan, would come in the footsteps of Afghan President Hamid Karzai?s acquiescence to holding run-off elections in early November. Yet even as Mr Karzai announced his support for the run-off elections, there was no sign of a decision from President Barack Obama?s camp regarding an increase in troop levels in Afghanistan.

Yet while administration officials ponder the onerous decision of whether to commit thousands of more troops to Afghanistan, there is little sign that anyone in the Obama administration has even been charged with the task of coming up with a strategy for Pakistan. While there has been applause in Washington for the Pakistani military following its recent offensive in Waziristan, there seems to be scant consensus as to what sort of national security dividends the United States expects to reap from the offensive.

One central source of confusion and division in Washington pivots on whether security objectives in the region must be directed towards the Taliban or Al Qaeda. The confusion between the two and the consequent paralysis it has instigated among those constructing Obama?s policy harks back to the fateful campaign slogans that painted Al Qaeda and not the militants among the Iraqis or the Afghans as America?s ?real? enemy.

As the Pakistan Army continues its offensive against the Taliban, it is thus this lingering question that once again haunts both the White House and Congress. The perplexity of their dilemma was highlighted at a congressional hearing held last week where military analyst Frederick Kagan insisted that the war against Al Qaeda also meant a war against its allies and proxies (the Taliban) while across town White House press secretary Robert Gibbs played down the threat posed by the Taliban saying: ?Their capability is somewhat different (from that of Al Qaeda) on the continuum of transnational threats.?

The uncertainty of how to proceed on Pakistan is compounded by the inability of US analysts to distinguish between its nation-building efforts in Afghanistan — a relatively desolate land that has been ravaged by 30 years of war — and Pakistan, an increasingly urban nation of nearly 170 million, which has elements openly scoffing at US aid. The theme of ?inter-connection? of ?AfPak? has often misled officials with little geographical or socio-cultural understanding of the difference between the two countries into believing that they are crude extensions of each other.

Hence the assumption that throwing aid towards Pakistan would accomplish similar nation-building goals as has been pursued in Afghanistan and simultaneously buy the goodwill of the people. The vacuity of this superficial recipe was exposed by the public outcry in Pakistan following the Kerry-Lugar bill, when the intractability of buying hearts and minds with aid disbursements came into sharp focus.

Strategic complexities in arriving at a plan for Pakistan are compounded by political complications that arise from President Obama?s core constituency: the American left. Traditionally anti-war, they spent the campaign revelling in the fact that Obama — their dream candidate — had never supported the Iraq war. They thus remain ambivalent regarding the troop build-up in Afghanistan and utterly confounded as to where they should stand on Pakistan.

While some have admittedly come out against the drone attacks in Pakistan that have killed civilians, others are vexed at the possibility that their anti-war president may be dragged to a third front. Their current paralysis and the possibility that they may vehemently oppose an increased troop presence in the region suggest untold political costs for the Obama administration in the upcoming mid-term elections and could lead to further indecision on Pakistan.

In essence, the ongoing military operation launched by the Pakistan Army against the Taliban has effectively exposed a gaping chasm in US policy towards the region. In the months leading up to the recent offensive US officials such as Defence Secretary Robert Gates and even Centcom chief Gen David Petraeus presented a series of cataclysmic pronouncements urging the Pakistan military to take the Taliban threat seriously.

Yet now that the Pakistan Army has done exactly that it seems unclear what the US expects as the end-game of this battle. Its dithering on the issue of whether or not it will choose to have a stronger troop presence in Afghanistan and the confusion regarding whether its efforts will be directed against the Taliban or Al Qaeda represent deepening divisions and unclear objectives.

The conundrum is exacerbated further by the diminishing influence of Obama?s special envoys to the region on policy discussions regarding Afghanistan and Pakistan. The sidelining of special envoy Richard Holbrooke from discussions with President Karzai on the issue of run-off elections is yet another example of the fact that those actually negotiating with players in the region are losing crucial ground.

Ultimately, the absence of a cohesive US strategy towards Pakistan beyond urgings
to take the threat of the Taliban seriously is reflective of an omission that is likely to impose both political and strategic costs on the United States. For Pakistan, the war against the Taliban is territorial and directed specifically at gaining back control of specific regions. For the US, the connections drawn between its national security concerns and fighting territorial wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan are far more complex.

The evasive logic of these connections has become especially problematic when US policy towards Pakistan is exposed as a lurid hodgepodge of drone attacks, aid packages and diplomatic urgings to fight the Taliban. Given the already fragile relationship between the US and Pakistan, the absence of a comprehensive and clear plan towards the region does little to reassure Pakistanis that their status as American allies will continue in the years to come.
 
Quote    Reply

sentinel28a       10/29/2009 2:59:32 PM
Things in Afghanistan are worse than I thought if Le Zoo is making sense.
 
Especially since the latest rumor of Obama's strategy is a "hold the cities, abandon the countryside" defense...because that worked so well the last time we tried it. 
 
 
Quote    Reply

FJV    Maybe it was rigged from the start   10/30/2009 1:40:30 PM
Maybe someone "decided" it was never meant to be won in the first place or maybe it is stupidity. The brother of Karzai, you know the heroin trader, has appeared on a pay list of the CIA. And now we suddenly have to stop herion trade as part of our strategy. Talk about financing your own problems.

We are expected to fight the drugs trade in Aghanistan, when the president of Afgahnistan, the president of neighbouring Pakistan, the Mullahs of Iran are all involved in that trade.
 
On top of that our Western government are filled of coke snorters. I've seen numbers of Europarliament and the German Bundestag test showing traces of drugs in as much as 80% of the toilets. Nobody tested the toilets in the US senate, but I would not be suprised to see similar results.
 
With the people "leading" the fight against drugs involved in the trade or their consumption, I don't regard our chances of winning highly. Making that fight against drugs part of the fight in Afghanistan......
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

YelliChink       10/30/2009 1:49:03 PM

On top of that our Western government are filled of coke snorters. I've seen numbers of Europarliament and the German Bundestag test showing traces of drugs in as much as 80% of the toilets. Nobody tested the toilets in the US senate, but I would not be suprised to see similar results.


You can say that's open secret on the Capitol Hill. There needs to be a law barring drug addicts from running office.
 
And you also have to include certain emotion-controlling drugs such as Prozac.
 
Yes, the US seems to be run by a bunch of Red Diaper Doper Babies.
 
Quote    Reply

sentinel28a       10/30/2009 3:34:19 PM
I don't know.  I can think of several politicians in Washington who are in desperate need of Prozac.  I can think of a few who are in desperate need of arsenic too, actually.  (I'd be interested in seeing some evidence of widespread cocaine use in the EU, FJV--not because I doubt that it's true, especially given the EU politicians' actions as of late.)
 
The reason why we have to go after heroin in Afghanistan is because the Taliban uses heroin to finance their operations.  It's no different than putting the squeeze on a Mafia bag man if you want to get the people in charge.
 
 
Quote    Reply



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy