See If This Works

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Subject: See If This Works
CJH 5/21/2010 4:30:30 PM

David Barton of Wallbuilders

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Wicked Chinchilla 5/25/2010 11:08:32 AM

The problem with having some people doing the judging is that then you are going to have conflicting judgings by different judges. Then, how do you tell who is right and who is wrong.

The answer from my undergraduate philosphy lecturer is that there are some self evident truths that all successful philosphical traditions must share in order to prosper for any length of time. So long as we accept the basic tenants of good living like doing no harm (at least) and doing good (better still) then we can usually work out any differences in a positive way, or at least find a fair way to make a decision even when it doesn't suit everybody. Stephen Covey, a committed Mormon but also the author of one of the most secular self help books of all time "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" extensively studied the great philosphical traditions, both religious and secular, and drew much the same conclusion. The basics for social co-operation are there in all of those belief systems, even if there are times when they are not practiced by the adherants.

In contrast people who try to find difference for whatever screwed up reason and make an issue of it will only every destroy happiness. Christianity proved that with the incessent fighting between Protestants and Catholics which lasted for centuries after the Reformation, only finally ending (hopefully) with the end of the troubles in Ireland. How did God's law help to create peace on those conflicts? Athiests like Dawkins are as bad. He is another one who cannot live and let live, and finds the need to attack peoples beliefs, even when they are quite happy to mind their own business. The Soviets had a lot like him and look at how many people died because of it.

The true secret to spiritual and social harmony is to live by the universal truths and to refute any person or group that does not.

Hate to break this to you, but the core of modern politics is to embrace the later while denying the existance of the former.

Which is why modern politics is so full of polarizing hatred, deliberate deceit, and just sheer stupidity. In no way does the state of modern politics make AG wrong. It kinda proves his point.

Why the push to affirm America as a "Christian Nation?" We are a nation with many Christians, true, but we also have a large number of a myriad of other religions. Are we thus not a Muslim Nation? A Buddhist Nation? The framers of the constitution wanted church and state irrevocably seperated to avoid the horrible atrocities of the 30-years war and other vicious wars of religion conducted in Europe. I fail to understand how that wasn't an absolutely wonderful idea.

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Photon 5/25/2010 6:39:09 PM

WC: The framers of the constitution wanted church and state irrevocably seperated to avoid the horrible atrocities of the 30-years war and other vicious wars of religion conducted in Europe. I fail to understand how that wasn't an absolutely wonderful idea.

Unfortunately, some of our home-grown 'Christian' mumblers conveniently leave this one out. The founders of the US were product of 17th century Western world: The memories of the horrors of religious wars was still quite fresh. In the meantime, as a reaction to they debilitating religious conflicts, a whole slew of foundations of modern era were getting pieced together -- rationalism, utilitarianism, and several other secular ideas. Insofar as their writings are concerned, while they may be labeled as Christians, they were hardly basing their concept of a new country within the rubric of Christian dogmatism. However, our fellow Christian fundies today have all but hijacked the beginning of the US to make it conform to their own mythic America.

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CJH 5/28/2010 10:31:52 PM

The problem with having some people doing the judging is that then you are going to have conflicting judgings by different judges. Then, how do you tell who is right and who is wrong.

The true secret to spiritual and social harmony is to live by the universal truths and to refute any person or group that does not.

The troubles in Ireland seem to have been more tribal than religious.

I do not recall any recourse to conflicting theological doctrines having been involved.

I would seriously doubt that the most combative would have even understood the doctrinal differences.

You have to remember that the Irish were ruled by the English for a long time.

As for the "incessent fighting" following the Reformation", that was politics - people being people while ignoring God's law. Remember, Catholic France sided with the Protestants (Richelieu policy?) in the 30 Years War.

Pursuit of power and not Christianity was what caused that.

If anything, Christianity was what motivated many North Irelanders on both sides to seek an end to the troubles.

I might ask you what Christianity had to do with the millions murdered during the twentieth century.

I'll tell you - the followers of secular philsophical systems, systems stemming primarily from the European Enlightenment.

We see the difference in behavior very well in the different ways the American Revolution and the French Revolution turned out.

The American Revolution (guided by many who were earnest Christians) ended with the stage set for a founding of a stable republic.

The French Revolution (European Enlightenment, Godess of Reason, closed churches, etc) led to a flood of beheadings, a reign of terror, Napolean Bonaparte and a series of different republics.

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CJH 5/28/2010 10:43:23 PM

The problem with having some people doing the judging is that then you are going to have conflicting judgings by different judges. Then, how do you tell who is right and who is wrong.

The true secret to spiritual and social harmony is to live by the universal truths and to refute any person or group that does not.

Hate to break this to you, but the core of modern politics is to embrace the later while denying the existance of the former.

Which is why modern politics is so full of polarizing hatred, deliberate deceit, and just sheer stupidity. In no way does the state of modern politics make AG wrong. It kinda proves his point.

You have to understand the historical background of the nation of the primary origin of the people who wrote our constitution.
England had a church whose head was the monarch. There was a time when people were required on penalty of law to attend a COE church. Church pasters were compelled by law to adhere to government standards applying to litugy and vestments.

The Church of England was the established church in some of the colonies under British rule.

John Bunyan who wrote "Pilgrim's Progress" wrote it in prison while he was serving a sentence for preaching without a license.

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CJH 5/28/2010 10:54:02 PM

The true secret to spiritual and social harmony is to live by the universal truths and to refute any person or group that does not.

Whose universal truths (What's true for you might not be true for me)? The one with the most power.

By the way, there are many people who will say they don't believe abortion is murder. How about euthanizing thye old and weak too?

What about the "greater" good? Doesn't that lend itself to justifying, say, genocide?

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Aussiegunneragain 5/29/2010 9:49:58 AM

Whose universal truths (What's true for you might not be true for me)?

"Do no harm" and "do good " are pretty basic truths, if we don't have those in common then I worry about you ... though I suspect that you do hold those beliefs. Of course there are always going to be disagreements about what those truths actually mean, but the key is to be open minded to the fact that your beliefs may not be that different from others and then find common ground. I think you'd find that for most contentious issues acceptable agreements on how to progress in a way that everybody wins can be reached. Of course there are some issues that can't be solved that way, such as abortion, and then yes it does just come down to power. The important thing then is to have a mechanism for the exercise of power, such as the democratic process or constitutional government, which allows power to be exercised in the most peaceful way possible.

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PlatypusMaximus If we want to be, we are 6/1/2010 12:02:59 AM

Rand Paul tried to caution "do no harm"...as in can a black owner of a restaurant (and everything in it) deny service to the KKK under anti-segregation laws?

Where were they when he was being called a racist?

Arizona (against the will and threats of race-based groups, organizations and Congressional caucuses; the Democratic party, the Whitehouse and the DOJ)wants to check the documents of people who break laws there.

It's being challenged as unconstitutional by the Newschool do-no-harmers...

." I want everyone, American and Mexican, to know my administration is taking a very close look at the Arizona law. We're examining any implications, especially for civil rights."

...but if it will keep their hands in the till, they'll say things like:

" We've got to make sure that businesses are following the rules and are not actively recruiting undocumented workers"

Arizona wants to avoid the rights of it citizens being trampled upon. But the Newschool greater-gooders mostly want their hands in the till.

"...people who break the law by breaching our borders being held accountable by paying taxes and a penalty and getting right with the law before they can earn their citizenship."

"... thing we have to do is to make sure that those who have come to this country illegally are held accountable. And that means they need to pay a fine, they need to pay back taxes. I believe they should learn English."

Money hungry (and a little racist at the end, theretoo) or concern for greater good? Can't know without card check!...but I'm for a right to privacy.

...and freedom of speech...with the fairness doctrine...

and I'm for the black restaurantt owner (and his private property)...but he has to purchase health insurance...

I'm for a right to choose...but only when it comes to abortion, gay marriage and offensive art.

I'm for a separation of church and state, ...

so naturally that means strong federal laws that forbid California from being officially buddhist, NY from being officially Muslim, or TX from being officially christian....or even a church from helping a school by hosting a dance.

Brewer/Christie 2012

"The border wall and the wrecking ball"

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YelliChink 6/1/2010 12:48:32 AM

Brewer/Christie 2012

"The border wall and the wrecking ball"

Sounds like a WIN to me.

Anyway, if you want to build a border wall, make it looks like Hadrian's Wall, the Great Wall, die Mauer and West Bank Wall.

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PlatypusMaximus 6/1/2010 1:14:42 AM

You've got a male/female Northeast/Southwest ticket that has so far shown a willingness to stand up and fight, (against oppressive, brutal, relentless opposition) for their principles. The ball 7 the wall or nothing at all

Wall contractors have said they could build 2 walls... 20 feet high, 20 feet deep, 20 feet apart...across the entire Mexican border for about 40 Billion. (about 2 weeks of Democrat budget deficit)

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