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Subject: What kind of an AWAC platform could be used on a “harrier-carrier”?
rayott    10/5/2005 5:21:28 AM
Today several nations have small “harrier carriers” and no “conventional” carriers, including the UK, Italy and Spain (not to mention the Wasp carriers of the USMC). I’ve heard that while these smaller carriers are cheaper (by several times) then a conventional carrier, they cant handle nearly as wide a variety of planes, including a real AWAC plane. Is this true? Isn’t there anything at all that could be used? Isn’t there some way possible to create a craft that has S/TOVL capabilities that can be used as an awac? Couldn’t a few NH-90’s (or other helicopters) be converted to carry radar pods? Couldn’t a few UAV’s carry some radar pods and send the radar info back in a steady stream to an “air control room” on the base carrier? I’m asking this out of a honest curiosity regarding the technicalities involved.
 
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perfectgeneral    RE:What kind of an AWAC platform could be used on a “harrier-carrier”?   12/13/2005 8:34:09 AM
To rule E-2 out is to rule out STOBAR and CTOL designs. So far STOBAR is still an option. If the MoD opt for F-35c or a navalised Typhoon, then CVF could be STOBAR from the start rather than designed for, but not with. We should here something on this in the first half of 2006.
 
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Galrahn    RE:What kind of an AWAC platform could be used on a “harrier-carrier”?   12/13/2005 10:30:37 AM
What about a V-22 AEW model? Couldn't be that hard to do.
 
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shawn    RE:What kind of an AWAC platform could be used on a “harrier-carrier”?   12/13/2005 11:31:10 AM
The main problem that I see with a naval V-22 AEW variant is that it has a folding wing system for shipborne stowage. This system is actually quite complicated, and would affect a top mounted radar sensor system, although not impossible, if the radar was 'foldable' as well. http://www.specwarnet.com/vehicles/v22_folded_hangar.jpg Additionally, little mention has been made of UAV-AEWs, either shore launched extended range systems, similar to the Global Hawk, with 72+ hour endurance, or else smaller ship launched STOL models.
 
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YelliChink    XF5U   12/13/2005 2:29:19 PM
http://www.vought.com/heritage/products/html/xf5u-1.html This might work for Harrier-carrier as AEW aircraft. But it might need to send radar image back to the ship due to lack of crew space.
 
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doggtag    STOL/STOVL AEW platforms   12/14/2005 12:50:27 AM
What about using tethered aerosondes/aerostats? Blimps connected by fiber optic cable (or better yet, for air ops safety, we make it a totally wireless semi-inflatable UAV) can get to very high altitudes carrying a modern array that is just as effective as any Hawkeye radar (range and track capabilities), with the benefit that the blimp can easily match the speed of a naval surface group. Only drawback is, it sucks in really inclement weather. But then again, not very many air forces and naval air wings care to do strike ops during gale force winds, so rough weather again can be an ally. Any environments that permit launching any other AEW platform should be weather-friendly enough for AEW airship operations, also. And, in times when weather is cooperative for extended periods, a long endurance unmanned AEW blimp can loitering/follow a naval task force for a considerable amount of time (several days, maybe even a few weeks, before maintenance/refueling). But getting at least some kind of platform even if just up to 10,000feet gives you a considerably expanded radar horizon. The biggest problem with most long-endurance fixed-wing (UAV or manned) AEW/surveillance types is that their wingspans, not their STOL/CTOL abilities, are pretty much prohibitively large for use from smaller carriers.
 
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KlubMarcus       2/8/2007 3:37:01 AM
You can always slap a flat phased array radar on a short take-off prop plane. It'll be small enough for that type of carrier and has enough room for air controllers. Saab's got a setup with an Ericsson radar, but I don't think it will survive landing on a ship.
 
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AussieEngineer       2/9/2007 3:25:42 AM
That's sort of what I was thinking, put a phased array along both sides of the fuselage of a Chinook.
You can always slap a flat phased array radar on a short take-off prop plane. It'll be small enough for that type of carrier and has enough room for air controllers. Saab's got a setup with an Ericsson radar, but I don't think it will survive landing on a ship.


 
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stingray1003       2/9/2007 4:23:16 PM
I think Spain was looking at doing something like this with a V-22.
 
 Main options:
- Helicopter (cheapest and easiest, but short range, speed, height, equipment)
- V-22 (a hybrid, medium loiter, speed, size etc Takes up a great deal of hangerspace tho)
- UAC (long loiter time, but limited in size and no onboard crew)
- With aircraft like the F-35 and F-22 they themselves can perform this role. With a network of high powered radar, datalinks, etc. F-35B's can take off from a carrier, so loading one or two of these up with Radar and equipment specifically might be worthwhile.
 
 Most AWAC's have a long range anyway, so would be able to take off from nearby friendly bases or be provided by a friendly nation. Also as things become more networked, ships can also be networked to assist in this role.
 
 A combination of these might be good. Say 3 or 4 UAV's supported by 1 helo, each F-35, and other escorting ships.
 
 
 
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streaky bacon       2/19/2007 8:00:21 AM
What would have been the perfect VTOL AWACS candidate platform was the Fairey Rotodyne of 1962! Cannot believe it was never put into production! It was way ahead of its time and almost just has good as the V-22 Osprey still yet to enter service! Maybe the UK and US should re-start the concept of the Rotodyne! Surely if 1950s Engineers can produce it then so can we today! Thank god for British monetary policy!!!!!
 
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Herald1234    AWACs for VTOL   2/19/2007 11:01:05 AM
You have three options.

1. Helo[includes tiltrotors under the subset]-maximum hover is around 7000 meters and maximum endurance is 4-6 hours. Problems- radar mast is slung below and you have enormous amounts of vibration as well as a ferocious rotor static charge close to your radar. limited range means you might as well scream here i am instead of using axis offset to mask the carrier's position. 
2.  Aerostat or blimp. Low speed and an absolute altitude limit of 15000 meters. Advantages huge lift and LONG endurance=big radar and large battlestaff. Disadvantages; if it is an aerostat you'll be operating off the fantail of a frigate  to free up the carrier. If its a blimp; expect it to be splashed in a force 3 gale.
3. Land based AWACs either robot or manned aircraft. This ties you to the regional land based coverage of an AWACs, or its maritime patrol equivalent. This is not a bad solution provided you have enough aircraft and friendly airbases to cover you in an area say like the Indian Ocean, if you are the Indian Navy; but if you plan to operate out of area like the Royal Navy you need a better carrier borne solution.


 

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/3903/v221ma9.jpg">

Technically very difficult, but if you  can do it with an Apache Longbow radar on the helo, you can run an AESA radar mast through the Ospry tiltrotor. 

This is the best rotor solution available if also the most expensive as well as the most challenging.

Unless you can WEDGETAIL something like an F-35B all over its aeroshell with conformal radar arrays like an AEGIS cruiser's planar arrays and I don't see that happening.

Actually now that I think about it? Why the hell not? Build a jumpjet with side looking AESA radar built into the fuselage port/starboard. You get blindspots with the wings, and the radar would be useless until you transitioned to horizontal flight  but you software around the blind spots and you wait for the static charge to leak off the aeroshell after you transition. It might look kind of blended body and it sure would be flat pane angular ugly, but why not?

Four radar panels front left starboard/front port: rear starboard/rear port.

Looks like a kind of squashed diamond square fuselage with trapezoid wings and a V tail, is a two seater, like a slabsided, extended fuselage version of the YF-23.

Thoughts?

Herald 
 
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