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Subject: What if the Vientecinco de Mayo was operational during the falklands war.
jessmo_24    2/24/2007 4:19:50 AM
What if the argies sortied there only carrier along with the belagrano, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cc/USS_Phoenix_US_Navy_cropped.jpg/300px-USS_Phoenix_US_Navy_cropped.jpg And others small surface combatants as pickets. would the war have played out any differnt?
 
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jessmo_24       2/24/2007 4:32:02 AM
*sorry I forgot the question mark in the title*

also throw some S-2 trackers in the mix for asw and the argies could have done alot more damage.

Link

 
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Herald1234       2/24/2007 4:54:32 AM

What if the argies sortied there only carrier along with the belagrano, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cc/USS_Phoenix_US_Navy_cropped.jpg/300px-USS_Phoenix_US_Navy_cropped.jpg" target="_blank">link

And others small surface combatants as pickets. would the war have played out any differnt?


Veinticinco De Mayo
ex-HMS Venerable
(V2)
"D"
Photos: [HMS Venerable as completed], [HMS Venerable in service], [Dutch Karel Doorman], [Rebuilt with angled deck], [Argentine 25 de Mayo].

Built by Cammell Laird. Laid down 3 Dec 1942, launched 30 Dec 1943, commissioned 17 Jan 1945. RN designation changed to R63 circa 1945 for service in the Pacific; served in the Pacific immediately after WWII; returned to previous designation postwar. Decommissioned to reserve 30 March 1947. Sold to the Netherlands 1 April 1948; recommissioned 28 May 1948 as Karel Doorman (R81). Operated strike and fighter aircraft; carried 34 40 mm AA guns.

Reconstructed 1955-58 at Wilton Fijenoord with angled flight deck, new elevators, new island, new armament of 12 40 mm AA, new catapult, all new aviation facilities and electronics fitted; operated as combined ASW/strike carrier. Operated in ASW role only after the mid-1960's.

Damaged by boiler fire 26 April 1968 and deemed not worth repairing; placed in reserve pending disposal. Sold to Argentina 15 October 1968; refitted at Wilton Fijenoord with boilers and turbines from incomplete sister Leviathan. Commissioned as Veinticinco De Mayo 12 March 1969 but did not complete overhaul until 22 August 1969. Assigned designation V2 was not carried. Replaced Independencia.

Was in poor condition by the early 1980's; inoperable after 1985. Laid up for possible modernization until 1997. Towed away for scrapping at Alang, India, 1/1999.

Found here;

h#tp://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/argent.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/argentina/images/25-de-mayo-line.gif">

25 de Mayo

Specifications (25° de Mayo) Dimensions: length: , Full load displacement: Speed: Range: Armament: Crew:
Specifications
Designer:
Builder: Cammell Head; Britain
Displacement (standard): 18,500 tonnes
Displacement (full load): 20,220 tonnes (19,900 tons)
Length: 212 m (695 ft)
Beam (m): 24.4 m (80 feet)
flight deck width: 40.6 m (133 ft)
draft (m): 7.5 m (24.4 fee
 
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jessmo_24       2/24/2007 6:12:55 AM



What if the argies sortied there only carrier along with the belagrano,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cc/uss_phoenix_us_navy_cropped.jpg/300px-uss_phoenix_us_navy_cropped.jpg="" target="_blank">link target="_blank">link



And others small surface combatants as pickets. would the war have played out any differnt?






Veinticinco De Mayo

ex-HMS Venerable

(V2)

"D"

Photos:
[HMS Venerable as completed],
[HMS Venerable in service],
[Dutch Karel Doorman],
[Rebuilt with angled deck],
[Argentine 25 de Mayo].


Built by Cammell Laird. Laid down 3 Dec 1942, launched 30 Dec 1943, commissioned 17 Jan 1945. RN designation
changed to R63 circa 1945 for service in the Pacific; served in the
Pacific immediately after WWII; returned to previous designation postwar.
Decommissioned to reserve 30 March 1947. Sold to the Netherlands 1 April
1948; recommissioned 28 May 1948 as Karel Doorman (R81). Operated
strike and fighter aircraft; carried 34 40 mm AA guns.


Reconstructed 1955-58 at Wilton
Fijenoord with angled flight deck, new elevators, new island, new armament
of 12 40 mm AA, new catapult, all new aviation facilities and electronics
fitted; operated as combined ASW/strike carrier. Operated in ASW role
only after the mid-1960's.



Damaged by boiler fire 26 April 1968 and deemed not worth repairing;
placed in reserve pending disposal. Sold to Argentina 15 October 1968;
refitted at Wilton Fijenoord with boilers and turbines from
incomplete sister Leviathan.
Commissioned as Veinticinco De
Mayo
12 March 1969 but did not complete overhaul until 22 August
1969. Assigned designation V2 was not carried. Replaced
Independencia.



Was in poor condition by the early 1980's; inoperable after 1985. Laid
up for possible modernization until 1997. Towed away for scrapping at
Alang, India, 1/1999.


Found here;

h#tp://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/argent.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/argentina/images/25-de-mayo-line.gif">

25 de Mayo


Specifications
(25° de Mayo)
Dimensions: length: ,
Full load displacement:
Speed:
Range:
Armament:
Crew:



















Specifications
Designer:
Builder: Cammell Head; Britain
Displacement (standard): 18,500 tonnes
Displacement (full load): 20,220 tonnes (19,900 tons)
 
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Herald1234    Coordination.   2/24/2007 7:03:50 AM
Getting targettng information from reconnaissance to all the attacking units would have been quite a trick.Piecemeal attacks would have been RN defeated in detail[As it was.].

Its easy to ex post facto what the Argentinians could have tried from an armchair, but as I see it from this far remove, I'm frankly astonished that both sides achieved so much against each other, with the limited means they had.

Especially the Argentinians, they did far more damage than anyone expected. Its am glib bunch of commentators who criticize their air force's professionalism or commitment.

Strictly blind man's bluff around the Falklands it was with both sides groping for each other using radar and sonar; it was a  well fought air/sea campaign by both sides given the mutual technical inadequacies, the geography, the weather and the logistics.

What did you expect the Argentinians to do?  Have OTH radar and  maritime patrol bombers?

They didn't have that, nor did they have a Russian style naval command structure that could coordinate surface air and submarine strikes. Not even the Russians ever figured out how to make that complicated nonsense work.

Herald
 

 
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Yimmy       2/24/2007 10:32:01 AM
Had she been with the Belgrano, Conqueror would have sunk her.

Had she left port, she would have been sunk. (We had an SSN watching her - they asked if they could sink her but Thatcher decided against, as she was not a threat.)

Had she been at sea at the start of the conflict, but not with Belgrano, she also would have been sunk.  It would have simply taken longer.  She would have been a priority target, and could have been attacked either by SSN, Harrier, or ship-launched Exocet.

 
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Phaid       2/24/2007 10:57:56 AM
The topic doesn't make sense.  25 de Mayo was operational and did sortie.

The long and short of it is that the Argentinians wanted to do a 3-pronged strike on the battlegroup.  The three prongs consisted of a group centered on the Belgrano, a group of destroyers and frigates, and a group centered on 25 de Mayo.

The whole thing turned into a debacle.  25 de Mayo tried to launch Skyhawks, but couldn't get enough wind over the deck due to calm weather and her engineering problems.  Between that and the sinking of the Belgrano, the Argentines lost the stomach for it and didn't sortie their fleet again.

If you mean, what if 25 de Mayo had been in better material condition and had been able to make enough knots to launch aircraft, the outcome would probably not have been vastly different.  In the event, her Skyhawks were able to operate from land, so her aircraft contribution wouldn't have made much of a difference one way or the other.  The only way she could have affected the outcome is if she had carried a worthwhile air to air fighter, because then the Argentinians would have had a fighter that had the range to really threaten the Harriers.  But the Skyhawks weren't going to make much difference whether launched from land or from the little CV.

 
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Yimmy       2/24/2007 11:02:49 AM
Had she kept at sea, and somehow amazingly evaded being sunk, she would have been a very real threat.  Not because of air-air fighters, but because her strike aircraft would be able to reach our carriers - which tended to hide down in the South East, out of range of Argentinian aircraft from the mainland.


 
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jessmo_24       2/24/2007 12:58:18 PM

Had she been with the Belgrano, Conqueror would have sunk her.

Had she left port, she would have been sunk. (We had an SSN watching her - they asked if they could sink her but Thatcher decided against, as she was not a threat.)

Had she been at sea at the start of the conflict, but not with Belgrano, she also would have been sunk.  It would have simply taken longer.  She would have been a priority target, and could have been attacked either by SSN, Harrier, or ship-launched Exocet.




















Are you sure thats accurate? I read a report on it that sad the british sub never saw  the carrier. and what about the S-2 ASW aircraft?they could have attempted to use S-2s escorted by skyhawks.
 
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Yimmy       2/24/2007 1:07:47 PM
Jessmo, as best I recall the carrier was docked in port, with the SSN waiting outside.



 
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BadNews       2/24/2007 1:07:49 PM
I doubt it would have done anything beyond slowing things down, The Argentines were simply outgunned and out manuevered at sea, had the UK seen her as an iniment threat she would have become the latest coral reef
 
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