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Subject: SGTObvious Manifesto 3 The Human Purpose
SGTObvious    9/3/2003 12:17:43 PM
Manifesto 3 is an answer to a question generated by Manifesto 2, which perhaps unintentionally heads towards the question "why are we here?". Paraphrasing, but conserving the meaning: Can God Improve? Quite obviously, the answer is no. Does this negate the omnipotence of God? No. Why not? From Manifesto 2, we saw the necessity of being able to define a point in order to discuss it. While we can define "improve", the concept of improvement regarding the infinite is undefined. Asking a theologian if God can improve himself is equivalent to asking a mathematician what happens if you add 10 to infinity. Since the concepts "improvable" and "omnipotent" are mutual negating concepts, we're back to asking if God can make X = Not X, which he cannot do because it is undefinable. But this is a bit different. The concept of God improving may be undefinable, but the concept of improvement is not, just as in math, an infinite number cannot experience increase, but a finite number can. So here we have a very real experience that God, being omnipotent, cannot directly experience. I may be going out on a limb here, but this is my own belief: There are real experiences and real concepts that are "out of bounds" for God, because God is infinite and therefore these things are not within the realm of the definable for him. Yet, these things have inherrent value. God cannot improve, but wishes improvement to exist. In my view, that is what we are here for. We are the manifestations of God's desire for improvement. Consider the whole idea of the creation of the universe, in whatever theology you wish. Before there was anything, there was the desire on the part of God for it to exist. On may therefore infer that given a choice between two different conditions, one being God exists and nothing else, and the second being God and a manifest universe exist, God chose the latter. If we accept the idea that God is also infallibly benevolent, it logically follows that the second condition is morally better than the first, because God chose it. Therefore there is SOME quality that present in the material universe that is inherrently Good, but not present (or definable) in God alone. That something, I beleive, is the capability to improve. Or it may not be. There are a whole host of things we can do which are not definable for God. We can maintain hope in the face of doubt. We can persevere through fear. We can choose even though the choices are ambiguous. We can learn, develop, explore. All of these things are undefinable for an Omnipotent God. A God who can know and do anything can never understand what it is like to be afraid. he can know what it is like, but he cannot BE afraid, and that is an ineffabl different thing. Since we are here, and we can do these things, it stands to reason that these things are our purpose. God can have ethics. Man can develop ethics. We could have been created with absolute ethical knowledge, but then, if there was something inherrently valuable about the journey, we'd miss it. It's all about the Philosophical Motion. The journey. There is something unique and wonderful and precious to God not in the destination or the route or the automobile or the engine or the road of life, but in the fact that we are experiencing the Motion that he cannot. One of the dangers of fundamentalist religions is that they attemtp to squash all motion. "Here in our holy book, properly interpreted by us and us alone, is everything you need to know". If you beleive that, then there is no point to our existence- God could have just as easily created the whole universe as we know it and equipped us all with the absolute knowledge in his book. Instead, we plow ahead with incomplete answers. We can't solve all the ethical problems yet- and that's a GOOD thing- it means that the journey we are on isn't over yet, and we can still improve. Are there real, genuine, universal ethical principles? Or are we creating them as we go along? There is no real answer to this. Perhaps we are the Universe's way of generating real ethical principles. What is the value of human life? We don't know. What is the point of Ethics? We don't know. If the point of Ethics is merely "the greatest good to the greatest number" as some have claimed, would it be acceptable to torture an innocent person to death if it made a lot of people happy? The answer seems clearly "No" but on the other hand, fundamentalist Christianity is based on God doing this very thing. I beleive that there is a real value in the Motion, the process of improvement, growth, and development that God alone cannot experience, and therefore, those ethical systems that permit and enhance this Motion are morally superior to those that do not. I beleive that Western Civilization best approximates the system of values which allow for this Motion. Our ideals support free expression, variety of ideas, and
 
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Rosecroix    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 3 The Human Purpose   9/3/2003 1:19:20 PM
so are theese a series of religous manifests or what? im more of a every soul is a shard of god kinda guy... and in the end at the end of all things some will return to the Father, and others will fall away, and god will be reborn. what can i say... i just fancy the idea of myself as an agent of divinity, but this you already knew. :) /R
 
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American Kafir    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 3 The Human Purpose   9/3/2003 6:34:36 PM
First, I want to thank Sarge for all these manifestoseses. (hehe) I enjoy these types of discussions immensely. Now my devil's advocate question - Because God is eternal / immortal, before he created the universe (I'm working with the God is external and pre-existent to the universe theological model) he could not judge or kill anything (nothing else existed) so at one "point" in his pre-universal existence he knew (because he is omniscient) that he would create a universe, and populate at least one planet with people who could freely choose to deny servitude toward him, and that this would be displeasing to him, and that he would destroy them for it. In the moral scheme of things, how is "give your heart to God or you're going to hell" different from "give me your wallet or I'll blow your head off?"
 
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SGTObvious    Aw, Come.on, didn't I cover that in Manifesto 1?   9/4/2003 2:39:24 PM
>>"In the moral scheme of things, how is "give your heart to God or you're going to hell" different from "give me your wallet or I'll blow your head off?"<< The former is not truly, absolutely, and completely beleived. That is how it should be. Take away uncertainty and doubt in God and divine punishment/reward, morality is reduced to mindless self preservation. The most spiritual form of man is the ethical athiest, who acts justly from conscience alone, with no promise of heavenly reward or infernal punishment for his actions. Religious fundamentalists of every breed claim these people do not exist, but they are wrong. Ethical non-beleivers exist, I have seen them and the extraordinary sacrifices they have made. What the fundamentalists are really saying is that in the absence of God, THEY would be immoral. Meaning, they ARE immoral and the fear of God is the only thing holding them in check. But not so the athiest; the athiest who acts ethically is beyond doubt the most ethical of people. God loves a moral athiest. Only by maintaining a healthy uncertainty can God allow morality free of the taint of selfish response to reward/punishment stimuli. That is why any religion or any beleiver claiming to have "proof" of his religion undermines the morality of God.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Aw, Come.on, didn't I cover that in Manifesto 1?   9/4/2003 4:03:57 PM
Well, yes, you did cover that in #1. I suppose what I'm getting at is if we "reverse-engineer" the human purpose back to a creator God we run into some serious and unique ethical problems. Especially if we polytheologize (izzat a word?) the existence of a Devil / Satan figure as created by the same God.
 
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ghettovet    RE:Aw, Come.on, didn't I cover that in Manifesto 1?   9/4/2003 4:20:43 PM
First of all let me pat sarge on the back for another job well done. I too enjoy these types of discussions. I would consider myself what you could call a moral athiest. It is not necessarily that i do not believe in a higher power, but i become confused as to what is fact or fiction/folklore. I also believe that the science of today, has cast extreme doubt on the validity of many religious claims. In short, i do not know what to believe. I do however, lean towards the, when we are dead we are gone, there is nothing else, school of thought. It is something that i continue to contemplate. I must say though, this is the first time i have ever heard a "believer" refer to someone such as myself as more, or even equivilent, moralistically speaking. Most religious people i have met are convinced that i am doomed to hell for my uncertainty. It is wonderful to carry on intelligent discussions with people of open mind and clear insight. Thanks sarge.
 
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American Kafir    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 3 The Human Purpose - Tavita   9/13/2003 5:17:01 AM
I wasn't trying to be humorous, but thanks anyway. But I think you would agree that if God really doesn't exist, America's founding fathers still possessed a moral basis apart from a God. Morality is the domain of human actions. Unless, of course, you'd like to address the morality of "God" in bringing about the alleged destruction of all life on earth that wouldn't fit on Noah's boat.
 
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Tommy Atkins    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 3 The Human Purpose - Tavita   9/13/2003 1:38:08 PM
Morality is the domain of human actions. Unless, <> Couldnt he have just miricaled a really huge boat or something? One that bent with the curvature of the earth? By my reckoning, the ark is described as the size of a TICONDAROGA class Cruiser. Can you fit two of evry species and foodstuffs into such a space, even clearing out unneccesery stuff like Standard SAM's and Radars? Answer on the back of a FRAM please.
 
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American Kafir    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 3 The Human Purpose -Tommy   9/13/2003 6:01:45 PM
>Couldnt he have just miricaled a really huge boat or something? One that bent with the curvature of the earth? By my reckoning, the ark is described as the size of a TICONDAROGA class Cruiser. Can you fit two of evry species and foodstuffs into such a space, even clearing out unneccesery stuff like Standard SAM's and Radars?< I don't know. But perhaps the real miracle lies in 7 people cleaning the stalls of 63 million-plus animals every day for over a year...
 
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Final Historian    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 3 The Human Purpose -Tommy   9/29/2003 2:02:00 PM
The story of Noah's Ark is one that is independent of Judeo-Christian tradition, in that many other cultures have a similar story of a great flood. So this is something that should be taken metaphorically. As for the spiritual atheist, I agree that they are indeed moral, ethical, even Godly. Remember, as creations of a Benevolent God we are inescapably marked with the capacity for Goodness. And when do good, regardless of the cause, was are acting as God is. However, one who doesn't believe in a carrot or a stick for doing such a good(such as an atheist or agnostic), is in fact doing so in a far more Godly manner. He is not doing it to get into heaven or avoid hell, he is doing it because it is right in and of itself. Doing Good for the sake of Good is Godly, while doing it for a reward, whether in this life or another, is not. In fact it is human. So you could argue that religion is in fact for those who lack strong natural ehtical convictions of right and wrong, and need a reward/punishment system to convince people to do good. This of course leaves out some important parts of Judaism/Christianity, such as loving God and paying respect to him, but such is for another thread. BTW, ghettovet, you probably qualify more for agnostic than an atheist.
 
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chemist    Reviving this just to get at archenar.   5/24/2004 5:43:28 AM
Hope this torques your tail archenar.
 
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