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Subject: Definitions - islamofacsists et al. from Terrorism board
Elbandeedo    4/15/2004 5:08:37 AM
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ilpars Clueless People 4/14/2004 10:19:32 AM "You do not know anything about Islam but yet you feel nothing wrong about insulting that. Fundementalists are not the only muslims and are not representing other muslims. Like some Christian fundementalist who killed a lady because she aborted her child; does not represent every Christian in these world " ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Elbandeedo RE:Clueless People 4/14/2004 2:09:11 PM "hmmmm.... you point to one Christian committing what we all agree is murder. I can point to hundreds, even thousands of attacks by muslims on people of other religions/races/nationalities. If you say we know nothing of islam, then one must assume you are an astute scholar yourself. Riddle me this "batman": When the pedophile muhammed said he was the unlettered prophet mentioned in the Bible, please tell me which book of the Bible mentions "the unlettered prophet"? I await your reply. I won't be holdling my breath. E." //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ilpars RE:Clueless People - Elbandeedo 4/14/2004 11:57:21 PM "I am a muslim, not a scholar. In Islam, killing is aproved only in self-defense, defense of the nation or in the defense of the religion. Killing someone for any other is one of the greatest sins in Islam. In Islam, converting someone to Islam by force or acting badly against someone because of his religion is distinctly forbidden. In Islam, Christians and Jews are called Ehli-Kitap (from the same book) and it says in essence all 3 religion is 1 religion. What fundementalist believe is US and Israel are trying to destroy Islam as a religion. The ones like you who says "Only good muslim is a dead muslim" (That saying is belonged to you I believe Elbandeedo), are giving them a reason to believe this. After USA and Israel what they hate most is my country Turkey. As 98% of our population is muslim but we are a secular democracy. According to fundementalists, we have no religion. That is why Turkey had faced El-Queda attacks in last 2 years. I think you did not know that. Turkey was fighting against fundementalism in last 80 years. 20 years ago Taliban was an American supported resistance group against Russian invasion. And you said "I can point to hundreds, even thousands of attacks by muslims on people of other religions/races/nationalities." You can say this sentence for also other religions/people. At least muslim countries never had anything like Nazis. There is nothing as Islamofacist belief. But I agree that some fundementalist groups are as bad as Nazis. What I am trying to say is there are always extremes in every group of people. Fundementalism is mostly popular in uneducated, very poor groups of people. The ones who hasd nothing to lose. Best way to fight fundementalism is to give these people a decent education and job." ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
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ilpars    Some questions and answers.   4/16/2004 4:46:19 AM
Someone asked following questions. My answers follows the questions which are limited by my knowledge. "1. Can you tell me why Islam countries are often oppressing their people? If Islam is so great people will chose it voluntairly. 2. why do moslims think that democracy=christianity? Just look at Turkey 3. Why do moslims blame the USA all the time? It seems to me that wherever the arab countires have opened dialog with the US(and the rest of the world) their countries have prospered. (egypt, bahrein, maleisia, turkey, etc) The countries with the biggest objections to the USA are the ones with the poorest peoples, most illiteracy etc. Is it me or would it be a job for the whole arab world to correct each other, be open, and start a dialog with everybody? 4. Why did the US had to come and kick saddam out of Kuweit, why didn't the arabs step up? 5. Why don't the arabs come up with a peace plan other than "kick out the jews!!" 6. Why do arabs think it's a good idea the blow up innocent people? When Isreal / USA stricke back at least they try to minimalize the "extra" damage. If you think you're at war go after the politicians, soldiers, etc, but leave the civilians out of it! 7. When islamitic fighters engage in a firefight with the US/uk/etc soldiers they often do so hiding in mosks, schools, groups of civilians. Than when fire is returned the people blame the soldiers and cheer for the islamitic freedom fighters.......I don't get it, why are they never blamed?" ANSWERS: 1. It is not about Islam. The countries who are ruled by a dictator or theocracy (Iran) are opressing its citizens. This also true for all non-muslim dictators. 2. In Turkey there is no this kind of believe. Fundementalist believe that who believes that someone who thinks governemtal issues can be seperated from religious issues is a sinner. In fact they took us Muslims who are sinners doomed to burn in hell. 3. Saudia Arabia is very rich but still very conservative. Bangladesh is very poor but modernist and open to world. So it is not the rule. The main issue is conservatism and fundementalism can find more followers in uneducated, poor, jobless people. 4. Arabs, especially Saudia Arabia would have liked to it by themselves. The problem is Iraq was the strongest Arab country because of the military aid they had from US and other western powers for their war against Iran. 5. Egypt came out and made peace. Syrian government is not popular in his country, so need enemies abroad. Palestinians simply do not have anything to lose. Other Arab countries have nothing to gain from a peace, they are not the ones who do the fighting. Turkey which is not an Arab country tried to help for peace. 6. Fundementalist thinks their attacks are paybacks against the bombardment of Muslim cities in Iraq or elsewhere. 7. This attidute is completely unacceptable and un-understandable for a Turk. Turkish army had fight against PKK terrorists for years. 1 good think that I can find to say about them is they never hide behind civilians. Turks and Kurds have very strong sense of honour. That could be the reason.
 
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interrested 2    RE:Some questions and answers.   4/16/2004 5:47:28 AM
First of all; I know that my comment were a bit crude and i meant no disrespect. I must say that i all (moslim)countries were like, Turkey,"kurdistan" malaisia etc than probably nobody here would be adverse to islam. The problem I still have is that no high religious islam leader is willing to speak up against terror, to condemn those who do and maybe even to surrort those who oppose it. Futhermore, I've never heard a good suggestion for the peace process in the middle east from thom the arab leaders. They critizise Israel (sometimes justified, really I don't always agree with them.) but never condemm arafat. They critise the USA for interfering in the middel east but never adress the dictators and oppressors themselves. It seems to me that's very easy to stand at the sideline and preach, it much more difficult to get involved and make a difference
 
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ilpars    RE:Some questions and answers.   4/16/2004 5:59:35 AM
The highest religious leaders in Turkey. Muslim, Orthodox and Jew made a joint annoucement last year against terrorism after 4 bomb assaults. By the way, most of the members of the organization that is responsible for these bombings were captured. This terrorist organisation is a commininist-nationalist-islamic group (Ya, I know even their ideology is very confused and ridiculous) was not making much terrorist activity and it is a very small organisation. That is the reason our intelligence did not have any warning. It is undertood later that this organisation allied itself with El-Queda recently. I am glad to tell you that after their capture, travelling to Turkey is again very safe.
 
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Elbandeedo    RE:Major groups in Islam. Fundementalism. Why there is nothing as an IslamoFacist.    4/16/2004 9:29:05 AM
I think you said a key phrase in discussing the fundamentalists: "They believe that western powers are trying to destroy Islam culture. They are not trying to conquer world. In their belief they are trying to protect Islam." That is where the problem lies. They "say" that they think western powers are attempting to destroy islam, therefore they are merely defending their faith - but they take their attacks outside their country, outside international law, outside Gods law. When you say "they are not trying to conquer the world" - please understand that everything we see or read points to just the opposite. they have sent murderers to the WEST to attack US, not the other way around. I remember on hot summer days in Turkey, having to wear pants, shoes, shirt. Hey, I'm a California boy, grew up on beaches - shorts are a way of life in the summer! Yet out of respect to our muslim hosts, we changed OUR habits. The same occurs whenever Americans are stationed outside our borders, at least as far as I know. I have NO knowledge of how foreigners live in the compounds in saudi arabia. Another thing you said makes a lot of sense: You mentioned arab nationalism. are we actually seeing arab nationalism wrapped up in the "holy cloth of islam?" That lends credence to the "hijacked religion" theory foisted around. My problem is that what we see in the media, what we see in the papers is NOT the moderates, or even conservatives, all we see are the maniacs burning westerners, blowing themselves up in a bar mitzvah party (full of kids) or gunning down children ON PURPOSE. Server issues? did you get them patched in time? microsoft put out 5 critical updates. the site was SLOW when i went to get my updates! Thank you for your interesting points. It'll take me some time to digest what you've said, research it and get you a good response. these are my quick questions for now. E.
 
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celebrim    RE:Definitions - islamofacsists et al. Interested2   4/16/2004 11:34:51 AM
"In our belief there is no contradiction in Islam." I regret not speaking Arabic. However, I regret also not knowing how to speak Chinese, Japanese, Spainish, Russian and many other tongues. However, in particular, it would be helpful for me to speak Arabic, because I know that it is the Islamic belief that absolute truth cannot be conveyed in any other tongue. This is not our belief. I believe that Truth is from God, and enters into the hearts of men by his providence and not because of the merits of any one tongue of man. However, because I cannot speak to you except in English, if we are to speak of this at all you must bear with my infidel tongue. You say that your sect of Islam believes that there is no contridiction in the text. It is I think ironic that you can say that and not admit that at least the Koran is not clear and easy to understand, otherwise division over its meaning would have never arisen. In light of your belief, explain to me the following progression of suras: "And We have not revealed to you the Book except that you may make clear to them that about which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe. And Allah has sent down water from the cloud and therewith given life to the earth after its death; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who would listen. And most surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle; We give you to drink of what is in their bellies -- from betwixt the feces and the blood-- pure milk, easy and agreeable to swallow for those who drink. And of the fruits of the palms and the grapes -- you obtain from them intoxication ('sakaran' in Arabic) and goodly provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder. And your Lord revealed to the bee saying: Make hives in the mountains and in the trees and in what they build: Then eat of all the fruits and walk in the ways of your Lord submissively. There comes forth from within it a beverage of many colours, in which there is healing for men; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who reflect. S. 16:64-69 Shakir" This passages is about God's mercy. It lists good things which God has provided to men. The Prophet finishes this list praising grapes and apparantly the 'intoxication' they bring. Further it goes on to list honey beverages, 'beverages of many colors' that bring 'healing' to men. Now in ancient times, honey was the sweetest substance known and was used for making strong alcoholic beverages. Compare with Proverbs 23:29-31 "Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright." The 'mixed wine' of the passage is wine mixed with honey. My reading of the above passage is therefore that The Prophet is noting the potentially benificial soothing and restorative effects of alchohol as an example of divine mercy. This reading is borne out by the following sura: "O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated (again, sukara) until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving. S. 4:43 Shakir" The beginning of that verse is interesting since it seems to imply that people who pray might reasonably be expected to have been drinking. After all, the rest of the cases are things which people might reasonably do without sin - go to the privy, 'touch' thier wife, etc. The Prophet, rather than condemning the consumption of alchohol, appears to condemn in the passage only drunkness, and specifically only if it interferes with ones speach and judgement when praying. It would appear from these Suras that the early Islamic community had not ceased to consume wine. However, we latter get the start of an apparant transition: "They ask thee concerning wine (al-khamri) and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, AND SOME PROFIT, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider. S. 2:219 A. Yusuf Ali" Now, compared to the first passage I noted, the Prophet appears to have changed his mind. While still noting that wine offers some benifits, he notes that the sin is greater than the benifits. Finally, we get a full condemnation: "O ye who believe! Intoxicants (al-khamru) and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomina
 
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ilpars    RE:Major groups in Islam. Fundementalism. Why there is nothing as an IslamoFacist.    4/16/2004 11:44:28 AM
You have been misinformed. It is quite normal in Turkey wearing shorts. Some places are more conservative but even at these places people respect others. You did not have to change your habits. We have also very beatiful beaches at our South and West coast. Many tourists from abroad and Northern Turkey, at summer vacations go there. Of course most of the time people are in their swimming suits or bikinis. I am not sure what kind of place do you think Turkey is but especially Western Turkey is very modern. As much as I know there are no serious Nationalist-Fundementalist movement. Fundementalism and nationalism do not go together well. Same is true for comminism and fundementalism. They are very different ideologies. You said "My problem is that what we see in the media, what we see in the papers is NOT the moderates, or even conservatives, all we see are the maniacs burning westerners, blowing themselves up in a bar mitzvah party (full of kids) or gunning down children ON PURPOSE." I believe your media is acting 1 sided there. Fundementalists are minority in Muslim countries and also they are illegal in most muslim countries. By the way, although majority of Turkish population is muslim, we really do not like to be called Islam country as we are a secular republic. I think that was a big blunder that Powell had made recently. Although he apologised very soon. So, there is no bad feelings. Palestinian problem is more deep than religion. Palestinians simply can not see any future for themselves. They simply seek death for them and their enemies as they believe or rather taught that all bad things happened to them are because Israel. They need to see a future to stop what they are doing. Registries are gone in 1 of servers. I am working on it. It seems that I will be at work in this weekend.
 
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ilpars    RE:Definitions - islamofacsists et al. Interested2   4/16/2004 12:09:51 PM
Well like most Turks, I never have read Kuran. I do not know a single word of Arabic. That might be look like strange to you. But it is common in Turkey. What most of us believe and what our most infleuencial Turkish Islam scholars had preached was (Mevlana and Bektasi something like 10th-11th centuries): Islam is a path to lead you to good. But you can also reach it by following your heart. In the end every good people will go to Heaven and every bad people will go to Hell. In Turkey we are producing very good blends of wine and we have our national drink of Raki. In Hanefi belief drinking alchole is a very lesser sin as long as you are in control of yourself. But it is a very bad sin losing your control, your will as God gave the will to Human beings to seperate them from animal-kind and angel-kind. So most of the Turks are social drinkers. Personally I do not like drinks but I have personal reasons I do not know how scholars interpret this result as it is not my subject. You are right about Saudia Arabia but as I have last looked they are one of allies of USA and for a very long time. And Vahabi sect is one of the most conservative ones. It is interesting to note that both Taliban and Saddam was supported by US at 80's.
 
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Elbandeedo    RE:Major groups in Islam. Fundementalism. Why there is nothing as an IslamoFacist.    4/16/2004 12:36:55 PM
Ahhh Western Turkey - I only saw a little of that area! I was up north/central, on the Black Sea coast. there were a bunch of local folks who were not as moderate as you describe; in addition there was a strong iranian influence in the area. I remember we were all pulled into the auditorium by our command and were chewed out (yelled at) for an hour or so, because the local Police saw a western woman wearing shorts in public. They assumed it was one of our female soldiers or sailors. It turned out it was a German tourist! LoL! ahhh yeah, you gotta laugh. Still, the rules for us were no shorts, no tank tops, etc. no revealing clothes. I used to head downtown to shop and there was a couple of shops where, instead of chi, we'd have a beer and chat a while, prior to dealing... (or actually I guess having a beer or two was part of the deal!) :-) I enjoyed my time in Turkey in some ways, as I said. But as you say, that's Turkey - and it's not an islamic republic - iran is a theocracy. and that is a serious mess. IMHO the palestinians are being misseducated and missled by their "government" which tells them the Israelis are evil, the Jews are killing innocents, it's ALL someone elses fault - all the while the government yokels are getting fat, stuffing their own bank accounts while they send other peoples children out to blow themselves up in public. On the other hand, none of that has any bearing in the kingdom of saudi arabia. the pilots and many of the hijackers of 9/11 were, IIRC, (and honestly, i've read SO much i forget now where i saw this!) mostly middle class, not from poor families. It is my contention that anyone who demands that you live their way is a fascist - and if they are "islamic fundamentalists" and use fascistic tactics, then THAT is what islamofascists are. Do I think YOU are?? No. You are a Turk. A resident of a proud nation with an amazing history. you take (if i am on target here?) your responsibility to Turkey very seriously, but to you Islam is secondary - in a way. Kemal Attaturk, the father of your country, you revere as much as many people in islamic countries revere the prophet. An acquaintace from indonesia once commented to me on Muslims in Turkey - she said, "Bah, Turks are BAD muslims!" - I think your reference to being considered a "sinner" by others of your faith is exactly what she was referring to. Interesting. do you think that if osama and his ilk win against America, they will be content to then go back to their caves and leave the world alone? What I mean is, if America succumbs to terror, and we pull all troops out of saudi, iraq, kuwait, etc. and give in to all his demands - do you think he'd stop at that? E.
 
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celebrim    RE:Definitions - islamofacsists et al. Interested2   4/16/2004 12:53:03 PM
"Well like most Turks, I never have read Kuran. I do not know a single word of Arabic. That might be look like strange to you. But it is common in Turkey." It would look strange to me except for this: there are many people in America who call themselves Christians because some ancestor of thiers was Christian who have not read the Gospels - and they have less excuse than you, for they might read it in English. Thus, you might say that America is increasingly becoming a nation which is ethnically Christian, but which is not religiously Christian. Certainly I wouldn't want you to think that Britney Spears or most Hollywood movies are examples of Christian culture. I encourage you though to read for yourself what the Koran and the Gospels and the sacred books of the Jews say that you might know what they say and what you believe. I suspect that if I read Mevlana and Bektasi I would find more in them to admire than what else I have read in Islam, for what they saw echoes in part the writings of the Apostle Paul in his letter to the church in Rome. That also would be a good thing for you to read. For myself, I find that the Koran exhorts me to examine the Gospels and see for myself whether Mohammad is a messanger of God. But, I have done this thing and found that my pronouncement must be like that of those Christians of the 7th century - "What this man says is not true, and not in accordance with what God has already revealed to man." But since you are not a scholar of religion, I won't bore you by trying to explain why versus things seem to me to be strong proofs of my belief. "You are right about Saudia Arabia but as I have last looked they are one of allies of USA and for a very long time. And Vahabi sect is one of the most conservative ones." I often regret in part that the British did not leave Turkey in charge of its empire, especially since the British did such a bad job of managing it. It would have been better for the world I think. But, the say that politics make for strange alliances, and also it is not unheard of for allies to stab one in the back. We will see how much a friend of the US the Saudi Arabians prove to be. It's not clear to me that they do not extend a hand of friendship, but hide a dagger in thier other hand. "It is interesting to note that both Taliban and Saddam was supported by US at 80's." That's only true in part. It's true that Saddam was supported to some extent by the US in the 80's, but only along the lines of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. We had no special love of him, but we had a special antipathy for Iran. It's not true that the US supported the Taliban in Afghanistan. We in fact had little or no contact with the Muhajideen factions which latter became the Taliban. These religious factions were largely supported by contributions from Saudia Arabia. Rather, the support from the US was given almost entirely to that faction of the Muhajideen fighters which became 'the Northern Alliance'. Now I will not pretend to you that some of these people were little better than bandits, but also many of these were good and honorable Afghans fighting for thier freedom. It was for this reason that the US was able to so quickly renew its friendship with the Northern alliance soldiers. Again, the US was primarily acting on the principal 'the enemy of my enemy was my friend', but we were not so foolish as to make our alliance with the Taliban. I had the priviledge of meeting an Afghan fighter in the '80's during the war, and I can assure you that they were not all 'Taliban'.
 
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ilpars    RE:Major groups in Islam. Fundementalism. Why there is nothing as an IslamoFacist.    4/16/2004 1:20:06 PM
I think you were not at Black Sea Coast recently (in last 10 years). There are thousands of Russian, Georgian and Ukranian tourists at Black Sea area at summers. Maybe because of them area was very different nowadays. I have done my military service there recently. And gone there as a tourist several years ago. There are Turkish troops serving in Afganistan. More than that Turkey had given intelligence help to USA (Turkey considered Taliban as an enemy for a long time much before than US). And arranged Turkish minority's support to USA. For example General Dostum is a Ozbek Turk. Turkish government also wanted to help US against Saddam. Only if USA was more diplomatic, you would have our help. But that is a long and entirely different subject. There are many Turkish groups living in Central Asia as that is the ancestral homeland of all Turks. You said "you take (if i am on target here?) your responsibility to Turkey very seriously, but to you Islam is secondary - in a way. Kemal Attaturk, the father of your country, you revere as much as many people in islamic countries revere the prophet. " My duty as a good muslim is to be a good person. I never steal, lie, lose my control(from alchol or something else) or do something I feel that it is wrong. I go to Mosque or pray to God whenever I want to (I admit which is not much). I help others if I am able to do. These are my duties to my religion and I take them seriously. We respect Ataturk very much as he saved the Turkish nation. Not only he saved us from invasion, also from Monarchy and Conservatives. He took Turkey into the path of modern nations. Turkey owed him much. But we never revered him like we revered the Prophet. Some Indonesians do not like Turkey because we abolished the Ottoman Empire and Caliphate and became a republic. In 16th Century Ottoman Empire had sent military forces (a small fleet) to Indonesia to help them against Portugese. There are still descants of these soldiers marrying local woman living in Indonesia the remnants of that fleet. So they feel respect to Ottoman Dynasty. Also being a secular nation might have add to this. But generally non-Arab muslim countries have good relations with Turkey such as most of Africa, pre-Taliban Afganistan, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Malaysia, pre-Humeyni Iran, ex-Soviet Turkish countries.
 
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