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Subject: Future US light infantry ?
murabit821    11/8/2007 3:59:51 PM
structure of FCS Brigade unit of action , aproximate know FCS Brigade Brigade HHC Brigade inteligence and communications company 3x Combined arms battalion - HHC - 2x Infantry company (3x inf plt) - 2x MCS company (3x MCS plt) - Recon troop (3x Scout platoon) - Mortar battery (2x mortar platoon) Aviation squadron - HHT - 2x aviation troop - avn service troop NLOS battalion - HHB - 3x NLOS battery Forward support battalion - HHC - Medical company - Sustainment company - Maintenance company and than light infantry brigade in FCS age ? hace anybody info about feasible structure of light infantry ? try deduce light infantry structure from FCS structure Light infantry Brigade Brigade HHC Brigade inteligence and communications company 3x Infantry battalion - HHC - 3x Infantry company 3x Inf platoon (same as FCS dismount inf plt) Platoon 3x inf squad (9 men with OICW) 1x wpn squad (9 men with 2x OCSW , 2x JAV) 1-3 MULE-T ? - 1x Heavy company 3x Platoon of 4x vehicles with (OCSW + ATGM) - Recon troop 3x scout platoon ( - Mortar battery (2x platoons of 120mm towed mortar) vehicles HMMWV replacement ? MRAP ? Aviation squadron - HHT - 2x aviation troop - avn service troop NLOS battalion - HHB - 3x NLOS battery (towed 155mm howitzer) Forward support battalion - HHC - Medical company - Sustainment company - Maintenance company
 
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longrifle       11/8/2007 11:00:02 PM
The best thing that could happen to the Army light infantry squad is not to arm it with the OICW.  The best thing that could happen to the light infantry squad would be to increase it's size.  The squad as it is now can't sustain more than a couple of casualties and still keep it's fire team structure.

Ideally the USMC three fire team squad with 13 men should be adopted.  That probably won't happen.  If the Army is determined to keep the two fire team structure it should return to the old 11 man squad by increasing the fire teams to five men each.



 
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murabit821       11/9/2007 6:06:16 PM
Inf Platoon for FCS infantry company have 3x inf squad and one weapons squad ,
that inf squad , all nine men have OICW

but increase size is realy good think
i am wonder how can work that 3 element USMC squad in combat , how work when is understrenght.
at this level i can very good image how work two elements (maneuver and support)
 mechanized infantry what i know used dismount infantry (6-7 men) as one element and BMP as support element

maybe this is question for some marine , how work that 3 element squad

i see one propose where squad have 14 men , with 3x 4 men team and SSG squad leader, SGT deputy

maybe squad of 12 divided to two teams first  under SL , second under Deputy SL
all with OICW



 
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WarNerd       11/14/2007 3:07:30 AM
When converting from mechanized infantry to light infantry keep in mind that the mechanized infantry squad effectively has 3 fire teams, 2 infantry teams + the vehicle.  So, to perform the same tasks the light infantry squad needs an extra fire team.
 
Then there is arming everyone with the OICW.  Granted, the OICW is a possible step forward in open field warfare, but it has serious limitations in MOUT, which is currently the only place anyone is foolish enough to think they might be able to win against the a USA.  Without machine guns it is very difficult to establish a suppressive base of fire, so lets add some.
 
Try this as your new organization:
- light infantry squad (13 men >> Squad leader w/ SIR + 3 x fire team
      fire team >> Team leader w/ SIR + survey gear
                           2x men w/ SIR + add-ons of choice
                           1x man w/ SAW
 
- light infantry platoon
      Platoon Leader
      3x inf squad (13 men with mixed weapons) 
      1x weapon squad (13 men with 2x OCSW , 2x JAV,
            2x MULE mounted 81mm automatic mortars with GPS guided munitions) 
      1-3 MULE-T ?
 
explanation of my notations:
SIR = Standard Infantry Rifle, M16, M4, HK416, or whatever, to which can be added various accessories as needed.  Should have a choice of various accessories including grenade launchers (various calibers & designs), shotgun (for opening doors), and less than lethal accessories.
 
SIR + survey gear is a special package that includes a GPS with angular output, a laser range finder, communications hardware and various hardware and software to allow the user to just point, lase, and upload target coordinates.  Potentially the user can direct any GPS guided ordinance available to a target (usually from the 81mm mortars), but mostly it will be used for reporting precise observation data.
 
 OK, tear it apart.
 
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murabit821       11/14/2007 6:17:24 PM
i have just few experience with two element squad in Slovakia army
one squad (Druzstvo)  BVP-1 (BMP-1)  with crew and dismounts called Roj (Swarm) Squad leader, with 2x MG gunner (7,62x54R UK vz59) RPG-7 gunner (pistol and 3xPG in pack and RPG assistant (vz58 and 3x PG in pack) , and two rifleman (vz58)

hm and what about OICW ? US army will adopt this weapon in future
is more than certain OICW become one of main weapons in light infantry
maybe Squad = 2x team with OICW and one team with two SAW and two M4 (or 3x SAW ,
hm that mortar are interest , may pass this 81mm to company level (weapons platoon)



 
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WarNerd       11/15/2007 1:45:49 AM

i have just few experience with two element squad in Slovakia army
one squad (Druzstvo)  BVP-1 (BMP-1)  with crew and dismounts called Roj (Swarm) Squad leader, with 2x MG gunner (7,62x54R UK vz59) RPG-7 gunner (pistol and 3xPG in pack and RPG assistant (vz58 and 3x PG in pack) , and two rifleman (vz58)

 
Please clarify this 2 element squad:
Do you count the vehicle as one element?
If not, how do you split the 7 man squad?
how would you modify the squad to remove the vehicle and convert it to light infantry?
 
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murabit821       11/15/2007 7:20:36 PM
i mean vehicle as one element , swarm as second element
infantry fight in front of vehicle,
platoon of three BMP in column , 1st with PL , 2nd with 2IC , 3rd with medic
in attack first vehicle halt , second vehicle go on right side , third vehicle go on left side
in vehicles swarm seat ,  on left bench from back , 1st Rifleman ,  RPG guner , 1st MG,  right bench 2nd rifleman ,  RPG asistant , SL ( in 1st squad, 2nd squad) in third squad SL seat behind driver , in 1st squad seat behind driver PL and in 2nd squad 2IC , 2nd MG near turret on right bench , in combat swarms go in front of  theirs vehicles , medic and 2IC(or PL) stay behind vehicles , PL or 2IC stay in his vehicle , in attack vehicles fire on targets, supporting dismount infantry , 2IC or PL when is dismount have radio,
 just for image

when take this mechanized infantry to light infantry
deleted one MG , add two rifleman , add sniper with SVD
Squad =  SL , maneuver team (4x Rifleman)  , support team (RPG crew, 1xMG, 1xSVD )
that MG vz 59 is heavier than SAW, use  7,62x54R , 50 round box magazine, c 9kg

Platoon with three of this squads , plus HQ with PL,2IC , RATELO, Medic
company with two of this platoons plus heavy platoon with ATGM(Fagot/Konkurs) squad ,  81(82)mm mortar squad, AGS-30 squad  , Heavy sniper squad


for US infantry
propose two elements for squad
SL
maneuver team =  6 riflemen M4 (some of them or all have grenade launcher)
support team = 1x SAW,1x M240 gunner plus assistant ,  Marksman (DSL) , Combat medic
Platoon consist of three this squads plus HQ squad  (PL, 2IC , radio, FO , 2x Medic , Sniper team )
Company weapons platoon with  (ATGM squad, Mortar Squad, OCSW squad , Sniper squad)

Platoon can form 3x maneuver teams (SL+ 6 riflemen + combat medic)
and temporary weapons squad with 3x support team + 2IC








 
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murabit821       11/15/2007 8:31:50 PM
another propose

company with 2x light platoon and 2x heavy platoon

Light platoon
3x light squad
plus platoon HQ

Heavy platoon
 Direct support section
   - Direct support squad (ATGM,RPG,OCSW,Snipers)
   - Direct support squad  
  Mortar section
    - 60mm mortar squad 
    - 81mm mortar squad 

Light squad
SL, DSL  + 2-3 teams with (4-6 men) 
i am not sure which one is best


 
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Jeff_F_F       11/16/2007 4:26:35 PM
My bad, I haven't been paying attention to this thread... How recently has the Army been talking about OICW? I thought that was way on the back burner, if not dead, or possibly being quietly worked on through the LSAT program (heir to former OICW Phase I) and XM25 (formerly OICW Phase II).
 
I'm assuming this is an old concept that none of the powers that be has bothered to revise? LSAT is based on a light/machinegun to replace the SAW, with plans to base a weapons family on the technologies if development succeeds. So it doesn't sound like the army is really planning to abandon the concept of the light machinegun.
 
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murabit821       11/16/2007 8:02:35 PM

My bad, I haven't been paying attention to this thread... How recently has the Army been talking about OICW? I thought that was way on the back burner, if not dead, or possibly being quietly worked on through the LSAT program (heir to former OICW Phase I) and XM25 (formerly OICW Phase II).

 

I'm assuming this is an old concept that none of the powers that be has bothered to revise? LSAT is based on a light/machinegun to replace the SAW, with plans to base a weapons family on the technologies if development succeeds. So it doesn't sound like the army is really planning to abandon the concept of the light machinegun.

hm than which weapons will be probably armament in US army ?

when i look to XM8 variant
there is
carabine with with 12,5" barrel
automatic rifle with 20" heavy barrel , integral bipod and 100 round drum magazine
i think all soldiers in squad can carry  both  barrels , integral bipod, and use both magazines depend on situation
grenade launcher can be add also
this XM8 look like RPK models

better used true MG 7,62x51/7,62x54R which calibre better i dont know , i know just 7,62x54R
with standart assault rifle i can hit target on 300m , but in combat stress i estimate i be happy do this for 150m
but MG 7,62x54R  that sounds different ,long barrel, masive conbstruction made for sustain fire,  powerful shot , when used flare cartrige you can see that better balistic.







 
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longrifle       11/16/2007 10:23:13 PM
"I'm assuming this is an old concept that none of the powers that be has bothered to revise? LSAT is based on a light/machinegun to replace the SAW, with plans to base a weapons family on the technologies if development succeeds. So it doesn't sound like the army is really planning to abandon the concept of the light machinegun." - Jeff_F_F

Jeff_F_F,

The light machine gun has been successful at fire team level, especially in open combat: however, it's not ideal at the fire team level for clearing rooms, bunkers, or trenches.

The USMC has been evaluating an infantry automatic rifle -  heavy barrel, magazine fed, firing from an open bolt - for the role once filled by the BAR.  The testing so far concluded the IAR made the clearing fire teams much more nimble in close combat, but an LMG in support was invaluable for getting the clearing teams on the objective.  It seems there is an important role for both.

If the USMC does adopt an IAR, I'm betting the Army won't be far behind.  That doesn't mean they won't keep the LMG at some level.
 
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