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Subject: No USMC medics
mabie    10/30/2010 9:26:32 AM
Why don't the Marines have their own medics? Why rely on the Navy corpsmen?
 
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WarNerd       10/30/2010 10:46:50 PM
Tradition mostly.  Marines are shipboard troops, so the medical support was provided by the ship's doctor.  It also helps that they are paid for out of the Navy budget, when you are a cash starved service that can be important.
 
Outside of the Navy, medical personnel were camp followers for the most part up until the Napoleonic Wars, I believe.  Even then they were unlikely to be formally listed as part of units below the battalion/squadron level.  Prior to the invention of anesthesia (1846) medical techniques were limited to binding minor wounds and amputating limbs, and the medical assistant was someone unlucky enough to be assigned the job of keeping the irons hot, passing them to the surgeon, pouring sand on the blood on the floor to keep him from slipping, and emptying the tub for the severed limbs during a battle.  It was after the introduction of mass produced antibiotics (1942) that the corpsman appears with rudimentary training to stabilize the wounded and administer antibiotics and pain killers (morphine) to inhibit shock while awaiting evacuation.
 
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mabie       10/30/2010 11:27:03 PM

I can appreciate tradition but its been decades since the Marines were part of the Navy. As for salaries, I wouldn't be surprised if the bookkeepers charge the USMC for servicews rendered.. that's what accountants do for a living LOL.

Seriously, given the Corps' nature of being a self-contained fighting force and primarily engaging in combat inland far from USN ships, it seemed they would want their own medics. But if they're happy with the arrangement, great.

 
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WarNerd       10/31/2010 4:39:04 AM

Seriously, given the Corps' nature of being a self-contained fighting force and primarily engaging in combat inland far from USN ships, it seemed they would want their own medics.

Where did you ever get that idea?
 
 
At the moment the Marine forces in Afghanistan consist of the 3rd Battalion, 8th Marines, 1st Marine Logistics Group, and Special Purpose Marine Air-Ground Task Force .
 
At the moment the Marine forces in Iraq consist of the Regimental Combat Team 6, Regimental Combat Team 8, 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, and 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing.

That is a total of 7 battalions out of 27 active duty battalions, plus support elements.  The rest are in training, deployed at sea, or guarding Navy bases and embassies.
 
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JFKY    Mabie   11/9/2010 1:37:28 PM
I can appreciate tradition but its been decades since the Marines were part of the Navy. As for salaries, I wouldn't be surprised if the bookkeepers charge the USMC for servicews rendered.. that's what accountants do for a living LOL.
 
 
What are you talking about, they are STILL a part of the US Navy....there is NO Department of the Marine Corps, there is the Department of the Navy.  The SecNav overseas both the Navy AND the USMC...it was not until Goldwater-Nicholls that the USMC got a seat on the JCS.  Prior to that the CNO represented them, and the Commandant  of the Marines got to speak on issue pertaining the USMC.
 
Warnerd makes the Marine point, the USN provides a lot of the budgetary support for the USMC. It's cheaper that the Navy provide the Corpsman (Corpsemen to some in power) and doctors, they don't have to pay the freight on them, just like so much of their transport is Navy, or Air Force...again they don't have to pick up the "tab" for it.  It saves the Corps money...
 
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newjarheaddean    simplify/semperfi   11/10/2010 2:39:31 PM
AHOY,
 
At the moment the Marine forces in Afghanistan consist of the 3rd Battalion, 8th Marines, 1st Marine Logistics Group, and Special Purpose Marine Air-Ground Task Force .

IMO the east west coast mix shows the corps is broke, they have had to outsource the corps.
 
our birthday fell on humpday, lol IMO we've been out of step for a while. 
 
G-day!
 
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SCCOMarine    It has nothing to do w/Tradition or salaries   11/11/2010 1:11:06 PM
I can appreciate tradition but its been decades since the Marines were part of the Navy. As for salaries, I wouldn't be surprised if the bookkeepers charge the USMC for servicews rendered.. that's what accountants do for a living LOL.

Seriously, given the Corps' nature of being a self-contained fighting force and primarily engaging in combat inland far from USN ships, it seemed they would want their own medics. But if they're happy with the arrangement, great.


You should wait until a Marine replies before settling on an answer.
 
There are 2 battlefield related jobs that you will never find in the US Marine Corps.  Medical Personnel & Religious Personnel & the reason has nothing to do w/Tradition or Salaries or Budget & saving the USMC money on Freight.
 
The reason is the Geneva Convention & the Laws Governing the Conduct of War & Personnel.  As a result both Medical & Religious Personnel were given the right to claim Protective Status as Non-Combants.
 
The Sword cuts both ways just as firmly as they can claim PS as NCs to the enemy; let say a Surgical Team has 6 dying troops but the base is being they can refuse ANY order to put down the scalpels & pick up their rifles.
 
Now w/the GWOT thats not much of a problem, terrorist will kill everybody.. but that doesn't change the law.  At the end of the day EVERY US MARINE is not just a Combant but a Rifleman;  Every Marine Corps Unit is 1st a Provisional Rifle Unit
 
If you don't believe it ask the members of the 2nd Marine Division Band who along w/ members of 2MarDiv Admin formed up a Provisional Rifle Company to Patrol the Streets of Ramadi in 2005. Or in '06 CMC Gen Conway sent a Prov Rifle Det. made up of Quantico's HQMC staff & admin & some dodgers fr/across the Corps to patrol the area outside the Green Zone.
 
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SCCOMarine    It has nothing to do w/Tradition or salaries   11/11/2010 3:18:44 PM
The reason is the Geneva Convention & the Laws Governing the Conduct of War & Personnel.  As a result both Medical & Religious Personnel were given the right to claim Protective Status as Non-Combants.

The Sword cuts both ways just as firmly as they can claim PS as NCs to the enemy; let say a Surgical Team has 6 dying troops but the base is being they can refuse ANY order to put down the scalpels & pick up their rifles.
Now w/the GWOT thats not much of a problem, terrorist will kill everybody.. but that doesn't change the law.  At the end of the day EVERY US MARINE is not just a Combant but a Rifleman;  Every Marine Corps Unit is 1st a Provisional Rifle Unit
If you don't believe it ask the members of the 2nd Marine Division Band who along w/ members of 2MarDiv Admin formed up a Provisional Rifle Company to Patrol the Streets of Ramadi in 2005. Or in '06 CMC Gen Conway sent a Prov Rifle Det. made up of Quantico's HQMC staff & admin & some dodgers fr/across the Corps to patrol the area outside the Green Zone.


To finish the thought..
 
Every MEF has a Medical BN under it made up of Navy Personnel. Like the Marines they serve w/they are trained to fight. UNLIKE the Marines they serve w/they cannot be ordered to Fight individually or as a BN when in the performance of their Primary Duties; medically saving lives.
Unlike the Marine support BNs they serve w/they cannot be order into becoming a Provisional Rifle BNs if needed. Not b/c they're not Marines but b/c they're Legally Protected Non-Combantant who can turn down those orders.
 
Thats why there is at least 1 Navy Corpsman per Rifle Plt although there are several medically trained Marines per Plt.  So that there is at least 1 Protected NC who (under the Law) can put down his weapon to perform his duties & cannot be harmed by enemy combatants (who have signed the Convention, which are most nations; however obviously Proxies & Terrorist don't count).
 
So until the Law Changes Neither will the Marine Corps, it will have no Marines that can legally deny the order to fight.
 
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JFKY    Sadly SCCOMarine   11/12/2010 11:35:12 AM
You miss the boat...medics, in US service, can be and are ARMED....check out the TO&E of a medical unit.  you COULD be a "rifleman" and a medic...
 
It's traditon and budget not International Law that prevents it.
 
Further, "Every Marine a 'rifleman' is Corps POLICY", not US Law.  Hence, IF the US Congress decreed it, not every Marine would be a "rifleman," and you could have religious and medical personnel.
 
Thank you for your service.
 
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newjarheaddean    OUTSTANDING   11/15/2010 7:33:39 PM
AHOY,
 
i learned a lot, i very much appreciate all the info.
 
the thought crossed my mind as i was reading, about the Marines being chosen for mos such as embassy duty, naval ship  (officer guard, i seem to recall it referred to as 007 duty) and involved the marine prepared to surrender the fire arm to the officer and become a human shield,  reverse windwalkers det. Presidencies own ? etc.
 
i.e. because the discipline is to give the gun to the officer and become a human shield) of the marine is to not fight if ordered. ex; Iran 1979.
 
G-day!
 
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SCCOMarine       11/15/2010 10:48:41 PM
You miss the boat...medics, in US service, can be and are ARMED....check out the TO&E of a medical unit.  you COULD be a "rifleman" and a medic...

It's traditon and budget not International Law that prevents it.

Further, "Every Marine a 'rifleman' is Corps POLICY", not US Law.  Hence, IF the US Congress decreed it, not every Marine would be a "rifleman," and you could have religious and medical personnel.

Thank you for your service.


JFKY..  International Law does not prevent the Marine Corps fr/having Medical Personnel.
 
You clearly have no understanding of Ground Combat or the Geneva Convetion or the USMC so I'm going to do this Barney (the Purple Dinosaur) style by the numbers. 1+1 is 2, +1 is... that's the part your missing, the extention.
 
The Geneva Convention gave a Protected Status to Medical & Religious Personnel among signing nations. On the battlefield MPs & RPs in the conduct of their Primary jobs (saving or praying over lives) not engaging the enemy can not be engaged.
 
But there's a back swing to this, when in the conduct of their Primary duty (saving lives, field medicine, surgery, etc.) they can refuse order to engage as combatants. Like I said, a surgical team can't be ordered to ignore the dying to fight. Medics are armed & trained as well as any Marine, but technically its for their defense.
 
Now could the USMC choose to have Marine MPs & RPs.. sure. But it would also be agreeing to having Marines & Marine Units who By Law can ignore the order to engage the enemy.
 
Let me ask you a Question..??  In 2005, before expanding, the USMC did not have enough Infantrymen & Inf Units to conduct its worldwide responsibilities & send to Iraq so they began forming Provisional Rifle Squads fr/Motor T, Admin, etc. even the 2nd MARDIV Band. Could the USMC or any Armed Service fr/any Nation form a Provisional Rifle Squad of Medical or Religious Personnel?? Could they use a Med Company or BN as a Infantry Manuever Unit?? NO... It would be ILLEGAL..!!
 
So NO JFKY, International Law does not make it Illegal for the USMC to have MPs & RPs, but in our equation that would be the 1. 
 
All USMC personnel & Units are trained & used as Infantryman when needed.. that would be the + 1 makes 2.
 
So by extension the USMC can have MPs & RPs... But.. will not have personnel or units that it can not use as Infantrymen or Inf Units; that would be the additional +1 that makes.. well hopefully you get it by now.
 
 
 
By the same International Law.. Do you know the difference between say a Guerrilla & an Enemy Combatant?? Why is that important?? If captured one has a POWs Protected Status, one doesn't. Guerrillas, if they want that Protected Status have to identify themselves as such w/a Uniformed Item, w/maybe a Red Arm Band.
 
Sounds silly but its NOT.  Take the time to Understand before you Grandstand w/opinion & no fact.
 
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