Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Marines Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: End of the Marine Regiment?
oregon_x_marine    7/16/2003 4:33:45 PM
In reviewing the order of battle for Gulf War I & II, it has become quite obvious that the traditional Marine Regiment is "too regimented" for modern combined arms warfare. I fear that the legacy and history of Marine units will be seriously diluted or rendered meaningless if changes are not made. The Ground Force Element(MarDiv)of the modern MEF fight as combined arms "task force(s)" composed of various combat arms battalions and support elements. Scalability and flexibility are essential organizing principles behind these large command units, thus the MarDiv should be organized around permanent "scalable" brigades. The various combat arms battalions (infantry, artillery and armor) should receive the offical designation of "Marines" and have a unique numberical identifier (e.g. 1/1 becomes the 1st Marines, 2/1 becomes the 21st Marines, etc.), and the re-named regiments (brigades) could be named after a famous battles it had participated in (e.g. 2nd Regiment becomes the Tarawa Brigade). In accordance with naval fleet organization (fleet, task force, task group,task unit, etc.), the MEB should be redesignated Marine Expdeitionary Group. Such cosmetic changes might first appear to be superficial, but one has only to look at the corporatist structure of the modern Army division, which is organized around indescript brigades composed different battalions of non-operational regiments, to understand what could be lost.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2 3   NEXT
Sam    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/16/2003 10:02:06 PM
What are you trying to say here? First you worry about the legacy and history of marine units being diluted. Then you want to do away with them in their present form The Marine Corps has fought as Regts since Korea and still do. Gulf War II Task Force Tarawa was nothing more than 2d Marine Regt in a Regimental Landing Team configuration. A MEB is a RLT with all the trimmings(BSSG,MAG< Command Group) Its not a Brigade until all elements are present. The Regiments are referred to as Marines. and they are abbrev. as such. ie when I was in 1st battalion 2d Marine Regiment it was Abbrev. as either 1/2 or 1st Battalion 2nd Marines.And it has been that way since at least the China Marines (4th Marines)which I will bet predates both of us. It does me by decades The organization of unit names and sizes of the ground element are MEU-Bn landing team (BLT) MEB-Regt landing team (RLT) MEF-Division An important thing to note is that, for example, A MEB consist of at least 1 RLT but can have more and still be a MEB. A MAGTF is task organized but due to the natural working relationship that the combat arm units have its a seemless transition. When you say the 2d Marines went as a RLT, I know who the Arty Bn (1/10) and the other support units that went with them are because thats who trains with them. If 2/1 becomes 21st Marines what happens to the history and identity of the 21st Marine Regt. Would you make 2/10 the 210th Marines? Marine you really need to go bact to your BST book and read the definition of a MAGTF.(not MCAGTF as you stated in another post) I've met alot of former Marines but never an Ex Marine
 
Quote    Reply

oregon_x_marine    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/17/2003 1:03:16 AM
Sam: At the website globalsecurity.org, one can find the order of battle for the latest Gulf War. In the first Gulf War the 1st MarDiv was organized as follows: Headquarters Battalion, 1st Marine Division Task Force Papa Bear (RCT 1) Headquarters, 1st Marines 1st Battalion, 1st Marines Company B, 3d Assault Amphibian Battalion 3d Battalion, 9th Marines (-) Company C, 3d Assault Amphibian Battalion Company B, 1st Tank Battalion Obstacle Clearing Detachment, 1st Combat Engineer Battalion 1st Tank Battalion (-) Company I, 3d Battalion, 9th Marines Engineer Task Force (Detachment, 1st Combat Engineer Battalion) Company A, 1st Combat Engineer Battalion Company A, 7th Engineer Support Battalion Detachment, 3d Assault Amphibian Battalion (23 AAV P-7s) 1st Platoon, Battery B, 3d Low Altitude Air Defense Battalion Task Force Ripper (RCT 7) Headquarters, 7th Marines 1st Battalion, 7th Marines (-) Company D, 3d Assault Amphibian Battalion Company A, 3d Tank Battalion Obstacle Clearing Detachment, 1st Combat Engineer Battalion 1st Battalion, 5th Marines Company A, 3d Assault Amphibian Battalion Company A, 1st Tank Battalion Obstacle Clearing Detachment, 1st Combat Engineer Battalion 3d Tank Battalion (-) Company A, 1st Battalion, 7th Marines 1st Combat Engineer Battalion (-) Detachment, 3d Assault Amphibian Battalion (40 AAV P-7s) Company D, 3d Light Armored Infantry Battalion 2d Platoon (motorized), Company C, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion Task Force Taro (RCT 3) Headquarters, 3d Marines 2d Battalion, 3d Marines 3d Battalion, 3d Marines Section C, 1st Platoon, Battery B, 3d Low Altitude Air Defense Battalion 3d Platoon, Company A, 3d Reconnaissance Battalion 3d Platoon (motorized), Company C, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion Team 2, 1st Platoon, Company A, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion Task Force Grizzly (RCT 4) Headquarters, 4th Marines 2d Battalion, 7th Marines 3d Battalion, 7th Marines Detachment, Truck Company, Headquarters Battalion 2d Platoon, Company A, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion 1st Platoon (motorized), Company D, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion Task Force Shepherd Headquarters, 1st Light Armored Infantry Battalion Company A, 1st Light Armored Infantry Battalion Company B, 1st Light Armored Infantry Battalion Company C, 1st Light Armored Infantry Battalion Section A, 2d Platoon, Battery B, 3d Low Altitude Air Defense Battalion Task Force X-Ray 1st Battalion, 3d Marines 11th Marines Headquarters, 11th Marines 1st Battalion, 11th Marines 3d Battalion, 11th Marines 5th Battalion, 11th Marines 1st Battalion, 12th Marines 3d Battalion, 12th Marines 3d Assault Amphibian Battalion (-) 1st Reconnaissance Battalion (-) 1st Battalion, 25th Marines I hope the above information elaborates my point about the relevance of the Regiment. Task Force Grizzly, presumable the 4th Regimental Combat Team, is composed of two battalions of the 7th Marines while the 7th RCT has battalions from the 7th and 5th Marines. If a regiment’s battalions don’t fight as regiments, then why should individual battalions be identified by regiment? It’s a question my uncle, a combat veteran of WW2 and Korea, asked recently. I raise this issue because my uncle takes extraordinary pride in having served with the 2nd Marines at Guadalcanal, the 1st Marines at Okinawa and the 1st Tank BN at Inchon and the Chosen Reservoir. He doesn’t believe esprit de corps is well served when a Marine says he served with the 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines which was temporarily is assigned to the 2nd Marine Regiment, which itself was the ground element of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade and was known as Task Force Tarawa in the Gulf War II. As I earlier wrote, all this may be superficial, but it means a lot to men like my uncle. As far as re-designating 2/1 as the 21st Marines, I believe that the average Marine would be able to understand that the unit history would include not only the history of the original 21st Regiment, which was short-lived, but also the history of the old 2nd battalion of the 1st Marines. It may have been two decades since I served, but I remember that there are only former Marines and not ex Marines. The use of “x” is only to save space, and I am sure Chesty Puller would forgive me.
 
Quote    Reply

Sam    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/17/2003 8:17:50 PM
Alot of why they didn't fight as a "pure" regt has to do with where each regt was in the UDP/MEU cycle. The 4th Mar,7th Mar,9th Mar mixup also has to do with the draw down of the late 80s. We lost a regt worth of infantry. The Marice Corps decided that instead of casing the colors of the 4th Marines, they cased the 9th Marines colors. Then they redesignated the 9th Mar infantry Bns to be 4th Mar Inf Bns and gave 1 to each of the 1st MarDiv Infantry Regts. This added a "extra" bn to each 1stMarDiv Inf Regt (1st, 5th, 7th). Now 4th Marines has no perm assigned battalion but recieves infantry bns (2 from 1st, 1 from 2d) as part of the Unit Deployment Program. 2d MarDiv still only has 3 Bns per regt. I will guess that when 2d Marines became RLT 2, they borrowed a Bn from 8th Mar to replace their deployed Bn. I had to do the "x" dig. :) As a former member of the 2d Mar (Tarawa, Keep Moving) give your uncle a big Semper Fi from me. I was with 1/2 in the 80s and again in the late 90s. Sam "Others will follow, where we lead"
 
Quote    Reply

oregon_x_marine    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/18/2003 12:11:34 AM
Sam: Questions: Which division was the 4th originally assigned? Are the 4th's BN's all permanently assigned to 1st MarDiv Regiments? Are the 4th Marines garrisoned at Pendleton or Okinawa? What are the differences between an RLT and RCT other than one is afloat. What did you do in the corps? FYI My uncle's brother, deceased since 1990, served with 2/6 at Tarawa. His battalion had to wade through the infamous lagoon under intense enemy machine gun and motor fire. He was lucky to survive the lagoon but was seriously wounded on the beach and was out of action for the next 12 months.
 
Quote    Reply

Sam    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/18/2003 10:09:28 PM
The 4th has been bounced around. But, what would you expect from the Corps oldest. She was first part of the 2d Brigade (when in the Dominican Republic)which became the 2d MarDiv in WW2, but then became part of the 3d Brigade when assigned to China. When WW 2 broke out went to Olongapo, and waas assigned to the army forces Philipines and burned their colors when Wainwright surrendered. When the regt was reconstituted from the raider regt, the 4th Mar became part of the 1st Provisional Bde for the Guam invasion then the 6th MarDiv. Post war it has been assigned to the 1st, 6th, 2d and 3d MarDivs. Currently the Regt is part of the 3d MarDiv stationed at Camp Schwab, Okinawa Japan. The Battalions are part of the 1st MarDiv stationed at Camp Pendleton (1st and 5th) and 29 Palms (7th) RLT is a Marine term and RCT is the army term. I'm sure the makeup is different but don't know specifics. In 22 years I've done a few things and held a few MOSs. I started out and as a artilleryman, went to security forces (Barracks duty)then did grunt things with a few breaks here and there. Speaking of small world I've not only been a part of 2d Marines but was part of 2/6 in the 90s. The present 2/6 is the former 2/4
 
Quote    Reply

Sam    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/18/2003 10:11:22 PM
The 4th has been bounced around. But, what would you expect from the Corps oldest. She was first part of the 2d Brigade (when in the Dominican Republic)which became the 2d MarDiv in WW2, but then became part of the 3d Brigade when assigned to China. When WW 2 broke out went to Olongapo, and was assigned to the army forces Philippines and burned their colors when Wainwright surrendered. When the regt was reconstituted from the raider regt, the 4th Mar became part of the 1st Provisional Bde for the Guam invasion then the 6th MarDiv. Post war it has been assigned to the 1st, 6th, 2d and 3d MarDivs. Currently the Regt is part of the 3d MarDiv stationed at Camp Schwab, Okinawa Japan. The Battalions are part of the 1st MarDiv stationed at Camp Pendleton (1st and 5th) and 29 Palms (7th) RLT is a Marine term and RCT is the army term. I'm sure the makeup is different but don't know specifics. In 22 years I've done a few things and held a few MOSs. I started out and as an artilleryman, went to security forces (Barracks duty)then did grunt things with a few breaks here and there. Speaking of small world I've not only been a part of 2d Marines but was part of 2/6 in the 90s. The present 2/6 is the former 2/4
 
Quote    Reply

oregon_x_marine    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/18/2003 11:08:48 PM
Good historical background on the 4th. I went back into globalsecurity.org and saw where the 4th Mar Hq and her individual battalions are located. The 3rd MarDiv has sure changed since I was there...yikes...21 years ago. about the 4th Marines battalions.... Why didn't the Corps move the 4th Marines intact from the 3rd MarDiv to the 1st MarDiv? What's the advantage of distributing the 4th's battalions amoung the regiments of the 1st MarDiv? Does the Corps like the idea of a 4 BN Regiment but not a 4 regiment MarDiv? On the present 2/6.... If the present 2/6 is the old 2/4, then what happened to the original 2/6? Given everything we have discussed here, does my concern for the regiment's integrity have merit or is it "historical anal retentiveness?"
 
Quote    Reply

Sam    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 12:16:48 AM
You wouldn't reconize BC street now. Opinion here, 4th Marines HQ stayed in okinawa because if they left, 3d MarDiv would have only 3d Marines remaining. A Regt does not a Division make. We had to draw down forces in okinawa and loose a regt of Marines. No way would we case the colors of the oldest regt in the corps so get rid of 9th who was known as having the highest friendly KIAs during vietnam. Then make the bns of the regt we left as TAD units Although each regt in 1st MarDiv has 4 Bns in them due to the TEEP they will normally only have the standard 3 Bns at home. 1st MarDiv is in a win/win on this one. when called out they will have a whole division even after all the taskings (MEU/UDP/JTF6) Former 2/6 disbanded in 1986. Part of the first drawdown. The concern for the integrity of the regt has merit. However, its because of the time frame that you and your uncle served. The period between 1941 and 1986 was the only time that the Marine Corps maintained unit integrity within a regt. Before WW II we fought in Company and Battalion strength and formed provisional brigades, pulling units from all over, when needed. During your uncles time frame we got our first divisions, fought as divisions, so it was pretty easy keeping the Bns within a regt together. It remained like that until after vietnam when we went back to thinking Brigade size and smaller. With UDP and schedule conflicts Battalion history is more important than regt history. It use to be that if 1/2 was on a med float then 2d Marines was the command element for the follow on MEB andthey would bring 2/2 and 3/2 to the fight. Now if a regt commander does a CAX and gets to maneuver/control his own Bns he is a very lucky man.
 
Quote    Reply

oregon_x_marine    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 1:02:16 AM
Where is BC street?? Okinawa? I was stationed at Camp Henoko, the ammunition dump located beside Camp Schwab. Not to toot my own horn, but the points you have been making support my initial premise that the battalion is the "core" unit and is no longer related to the regiment in any meaningful way. Do you think my "reflagging" idea is a good idea?
 
Quote    Reply

Sam    RE:End of the Marine Regiment?   7/20/2003 11:23:04 AM
BC street, was in okinawa city. Right outside the Kadena gate. I was at Camp Henoko, in 89-91 as part of Det 1. Worked out of the underground bunker at the top of the hill near the CP. Lived in the houses on the cliff. I don't agree with the reflagging idea. We would loose much of the history and the close traditions that the Bns have had with the regt. Some of the best times that Marines have are when veterans come to visit. Nothing like being a .50 cal machine gunner in heavy wpns platoon with 1/2 and talking to a .50cal machine gunner from the Tarawa battle. There is no generation gap. Now if you want to realign the divisions around the MEB I'm all for that.That would get rid of a few HQ types. Do we need a tank Bn command post? Have an armor cell in the Div CP that can command tank Bn if we ever use them as a separate maneuver element. Same with the arty regt. Do they need their own admin, intel, comm? I don't think so intigrate them into the fire support cell at div. As it stands the only reason for having a arty regt HQ is that it is the alt div command post. There is a lot of restructuring I would do. But I wouldn't change infantry unit names.
 
Quote    Reply
1 2 3   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics