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Subject: top 10 tanks in the world!!!
Hong-Xing    8/12/2003 9:07:05 AM
i think it would be this t-90 (rus) m1a2 (usa) t-98 (chi) m1a1 (usa) Challenger 2 (bri) t-95 black hawk (rus) al khalid (chi) merkeva (bra) arjun (ind) t-90||| (chi)
 
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Z24gwb    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   2/14/2004 2:37:39 PM
The Leopard 2a6 is the most modern tanks in the World so obviosly it is the best. and one thing to mention those M1a1's that devasted the Iraqi army in the gulf war were armed with the German L38 gun
 
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Ad    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   2/14/2004 2:49:56 PM
Just because its new doesn’t necessarily mean its better. It depends on the opponent. Take a C2e for instance, the doctrine behind a British tank comes from the cold war, where the objective was to take out the Soviet’s at a range that could not be matched, take a beating from Soviet artillery and survive. Hence the use of HESH rounds, Cobham and 120mm riffled barrel. While compared to an M1A1, this is slightly faster, has more machine guns to for fill its duel role as an anti-infantry tank, (hence HEAT), uses a German made 120mm smoothbore and has slightly lighter armour. So it depends on what you want your tank to do and what military doctrine your working with. Therefore Britain’s tanks are heavy and have a riffled barrels as this fit’s the British military doctrine, while other tanks (I.e. LA6) would be to light and lack the accuracy of a riffled barrel.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   2/14/2004 3:12:15 PM
>>The Leopard 2a6 is the most modern tanks in the World so obviosly it is the best.<< M1A2SEP has dramatically superior fire control and target acquisition equipment, DU armor, and DU long-rod penetrators. Challenger 2 has better armor and and edge in main gun range. The difference between Leo2A6, CR2, and M1A2 are pretty small -- small enough there is no 'obvious' winner. Personally, I consider the M1A2SEP the most modern tank in the world, because its optics do, dramatically, out perform those fitted to other top end western tanks (as I've noted before, M1A2SEP is latest generation FLIR with up to x50 power magnification, Leo2A6 is x12). In a combined arms environment, being able to see the enemy (and identify him as hostile) is what pays the bills -- so what if L55 armed Leo2A6 can outrange the M1A2SEP by a few hundred meters, when M1A2SEP can direct artillery, attack helicopters, and CAS onto an enemy at several kilometers further out than Leo2A6? Add in digitization, and M1A2SEP is basically the killing portion (one of many) of information- driven warfare, better able to shape and dominate the battlespace as part of a joint team than Leo2A6. I would argue that this reality makes M1A2SEP the most modern tank out there right now, in an operational, rather than tactical, sense. L44 with DU rounds or L55 with tungsten are both more than adequate for the threat environment anyone is going to be fighting (T-series up to T-80 or so, and older western tanks) so I'm inclined to think the Germans are going the wrong direction with Leo2A6, focusing too much on the vehicle and not enough on operational needs. >>and one thing to mention those M1a1's that devasted the Iraqi army in the gulf war were armed with the German L38 gu << Not to be difficult, but M256 120mm is an L44 gun, same as used on Leo2s that have not been upgraded to L55. The main difference being, of course, the use of superior DU projectiles in sabot rounds, giving M1A1s and on so equipped better armor piercing ability than L44 armed Leo2s. As I noted above, L44 or L55 (with or without DU, really) is plenty of killing power for T-72s and T-80s.
 
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mike_golf    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   2/15/2004 12:24:46 PM
Horsesoldier wrote: "As I noted above, L44 or L55 (with or without DU, really) is plenty of killing power for T-72s and T-80s" And actually the L44 (M256) firing DU can penetrate the frontal aspect of an M1A1B. That was using an M829 in 1991. So, I would guess that the L44 firing an M829A2 is probably going to be capable of penetrating the frontal aspect of the M1A2, which essentially means it can penetrate the frontal aspect of ANY tank in the world.
 
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bazos    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   2/16/2004 1:41:34 PM
the best are only three. the first one is M1 then challenger and the merkva III.These three tanks wrere to the fight and they win.
 
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RetiredCdnTanker    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   2/19/2004 6:33:45 AM
First of all, I want to say that although I have occasionally visited this site, this will be my first post. I am now retired from the Canadian Army, specifically the Armour Corps, having served 27 years. I am now still serving the Corps as a civilian, a contractor, repairing simulators. OK, back to the topic. I have not read all five hundred some odd posts, so forgive me if I am repeating someone's previous post. There is no perfect tank that meets every nations needs all of the time. There are tanks that will meet SOME nations needs 80% of the time, and there are others that will meet a nations needs 90% of the time, but there is no tank that is perfect for everyone. Having said that, I will weigh in with some of my thoughts on the best strengths and weaknesses of what I consider the world's more modern tanks, in no particular order. The M1A2 is well armoured, has a reasonably good gun, an excellent fire control system, and has very good battlefield mobility. It's weaknesses include poor strategic mobility and high operating costs. By poor strategic mobility, I mean the requirements to get an operational unit moved, including support and parts for thirty days, and to keep it operational. In this regard, the turbine engine is an achilles heel, in that it's high initial cost, poor economy, frequency of breakdown, and cost of rebuild are all strikes against the turbine. Leopard 2A6, well armoured (better than the M1A2 against mines and top attack), fantastic power train, good FCS, and very good battlefield mobility. Strategic mobility is poor, in part because the user nations (currently Sweden and Germany), have limited means of moving them and supporting them in theatre. A very good tank, and one that is easy to learn to use well. The Leclerc has fair armour, a fair gun, and a good FCS when it works. It's weaknesses? The horrible engine, and the nightmare computer system that controls the FCS. It, like the engine, needs much improvement before it can be considered a top tank. The Merkava. You know, I've been in the Merkava, and I've watched them on the range. They are a great tank for Israel, but anywhere that battlefield mobility is a plus, this thing wouldn't cut it. It is a fantastic defensive tank, designed to absorb punishment and live. But, the FCS isn't as great as the others, it doesn't even include an MRS! For a small country focused on defense, it's great. For a highly mobile battlefield, I'd give it a pass. Last but not least, the Challenger 2. Great armour, very good FCS, great gun. I like the Challenger, especially with the Charm 3 gun, but that is the saving grace, the ability to reach out and touch somebody, at great ranges. We know the gun is more accurate than the German L55, but it is slower to load, which is not necessarily a bad thing if you are on the defensive with a clear and long field of fire. But, it is maintenance intensive, which increases crew fatigue. Again, not a big deal on the defense, but a big worry on a mobile battlefield. The T-80 and T-90? Totally different league. Like comparing the NHL to the AHL, or the NFL to the CFL. The're garbage. Junk. Well, OK, they are reliable, and have reasonably good battlefield mobility. But the FCS sucks compared to western tanks, the gun is as accurate as a shotgun, and crew comfort was not a design concept. Whew. OK, so now I figure I've written enough, especially for a newbie with his first post, don't you think?
 
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gf0012-aus    top 10 tanks in the world!!! - RetiredCdnTanker   2/19/2004 6:50:03 AM
Mate, are you in for some vigorous conversations in here! Enjoy the silence while it lasts, I'd guess you're in for some vigorous responses. ;) Its good to see another operators perspective though - always adds a little reality to the amchair brigade. Cheers. gf
 
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mike_golf    RE:RetiredCdnTanker   2/19/2004 10:35:17 PM
Hey guy, good to meet you, in cyberspace at least. Retired US Army tank crewman here. Gave General Dynamics a pass when they wanted to hire me, mostly because I would hate living in the middle east, and I would certainly have spent significant amounts of time there. I probably would have been in as long as you if I hadn't destroyed my knee about year 19. I'll just say that, generally speaking I agree with your assessments. I don't fully agree, based on operational experience, with your assessment of the turbine in the M1. Then again that's a pretty minor issue, from my perspective, in what is otherwise a damn fine tank. In some areas, especially the LeClerc and the Merkava, it sounds like your knowledge is much more up to date than mine. Anyhow, welcome and let's have fun.
 
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RetiredCdnTanker    RE:RetiredCdnTanker   2/20/2004 6:34:47 AM
Hey, thanks for the welcome! To put things into perspective, I have little personal experience on the M1A1, and none on the A2. I did have access to the report written on the results of the Swedish testing for the new MBT. It was partially a result of that report that I made my comments on the high initial cost, reliability and ongoing costs. Lycomings own documents surprised me, in that the initial cost of the turbine was almost three times the cost of the MTU diesel, the recommended rebuild frequency was higher, as was the rebuild cost. I must say, that if the US had sent over the diesel variant of the M1A2, it would most likely have won the contract. It was an option offered by GD, but no variants were available for testing. BTW, I do have some friends that are employed by GD (formerly GMDD employees), that I stay in contact with.
 
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RetiredCdnTanker    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   2/20/2004 9:23:33 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention. I thought I was going to have to close down and prepare for action after my M1 comments. Thanks for staying civil!
 
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