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Subject: top 10 tanks in the world!!!
Hong-Xing    8/12/2003 9:07:05 AM
i think it would be this t-90 (rus) m1a2 (usa) t-98 (chi) m1a1 (usa) Challenger 2 (bri) t-95 black hawk (rus) al khalid (chi) merkeva (bra) arjun (ind) t-90||| (chi)
 
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mike_golf    RE:Handheld AT Weapons - some comments   3/19/2004 9:44:33 AM
MikkoLn "And it wasn’t unusual at all, that in forest terrain a two man team – during their basic training period - could crawl past the vehicle on watch unnoticed" This is dramatically different when infantry is facing modern MBT's. The Abrams, Chally and Leo2 all have thermal sights, at least two, one for the gunner and one for the commander. The Abrams has three, the driver's vision system is also thermal. He can use either normal daylight optics or thermal optics. This means that a tank that is sitting still and being hunted by AT teams will be using their thermal optics. Prior to the advent of modern thermals an AT team could easily approach a tank from the flank or rear, closing to within 50 or 60 meters, in close terrain (forest, brush, urban, etc.). In the US Army the gunner and commander are trained to use thermal optics as their primary sight rather than daylight optics, whether it is night or day. This is one of the many reasons for that. Thermals are not hindered by daylight, in fact they work just as well in the day as they do at night. I'd be interested in how you would feel about having to take on a tank in the defense that had thermals, especially if it wasn't just one tank but a whole company, MikkoLn? MikkoLn "It wasn’t their job to pursue any MBT, for that purpose every platoon had a party of three men with 112mm launchers to be used in a similar manner" There is no doubt in my mind that a good AT hunter-killer team with modern handheld AT weapons can take on a tank and win. If you volley fire 5 to 6 AT weapons at the tank from the flank/rear and from above you are almost certainly guarunteed to penetrate the armor, as a minimum some sort of mobility kill. Tanks are not impervious to well trained infantry. Well trained armor units use tactics designed to reduce or remove this vulnerability. MikkoLn "Somehow I’ve got a picture that what Iraqis mostly did wasn’t co-ordinated or active use of their obsolent at-weapons" Based on my own experience and the after action reports and assessments the Iraqi Army was not trained for dismounted infantry action against armor. The Republican Guard fought as heavy units. The regular army was trained to fight dismounted infantry like in the Iran war. In every case I am aware of in 1991 that an Iraqi soldier engaged a tank with an RPG he was dismounted and being overrun and engaged as a single individual. Tactically speaking, had they had trained AT teams, they could have done significant damage the day my tank took a hit. We were fighting dismounted infantry in a sandstorm. Visibility was very low (500 to 600 meters) and thermals were very degraded, great conditions for dismounts against armor. Well trained AT teams could have done significant damage to our battalion. We had to assault and seize the objective, it was crucial to our control of the Iraqi MSR (Basra-Baghdad highway) and to encircling the Republican Guard. Bottom line, tanks are not impervious to handheld AT weapons. However, the odds of a single RPG or AT-4 class weapon penetrating a modern MBT is very low. To raise those odds requires very steady infantry using appropriate tactics. Most armies don't have infantry willing to absorb the casualties it takes for AT teams to be effective.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Jeffrey - M1 Gas Turbine   3/19/2004 12:32:03 PM
>>This is interesting reading http://www.g2mil.com/abramsdiesel.htm << The only thing saving Carlton Meyer from being the world's foremost imbecile when it comes to military affairs is Mike Sparks. Therefore, I must relegate Carlton Meyer to "penultimate military imbecile." Carlton's M1A3 concepts are what I would typically expect of someone with no experience whatsoever on AFVs, and little if any theoretical knowledge, either, only a large mouth (or website it this case) and a will to use it. It's not quite so impressive as Mike Sparks M113A4 Gavin drivel, but then that's why Carlton Meyer is the penultimate imbecile.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:C2 and M1 Turbine   3/19/2004 12:38:54 PM
>>In urban operations, which MBTs of any kind would try to avoid (with the exceptionof the Merkava, but that's a special design), Infantry and foot types would be stupid to stay close to the tank anyway - MBTs attract arty, RPGs and a lot of things that have splash effects, which means that foot troops will try and stay away from the tanks as far as tactically possible.<< The "exhaust is so hot troops can't hide behind and M1" theory is a myth -- and more proof that Carlton Meyer doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. You can fit an exhaust deflector to an M1, if desired. Your infantry can also grin and bear it -- you can't stand directly behind the exhaust, but can easily stand to either side of it. I've done so many times, as "hide behind the lead tank" was SOP in one of my units when doing a hasty breach of an obstacle during convoy operations. You can even walk through the exhaust plume without being burned to a crisp, though it certainly is not comfortable.
 
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mike_golf    RE:C2 and M1 Turbine   3/19/2004 11:34:00 PM
Actually, by the time the turbine exhaust hits the rear exhaust grille the temperature is down to about 350 degrees and by the time it is 5 feet outside the tank the temp is down to about 150 to 175 degrees (all in fahrenheit, I didn't feel like converting to Celsius). I have stood in the exhaust on cold days to warm up, clearly not something I could do if it was 1000 degrees F. Looking through the M60A3's first generation thermals I could see the exhaust plume of a diesel engine at 3000 meters. Even early thermal sights like that of the M60A3 could detect temperature differences of one degree fahrenheit. At 400 meters you could tell the difference between a man and a woman. At 1500 meters you could clearly make out road wheels, support rollers and the tracks, this all in the M60A3. Converting to a diesel engine won't change any of that. With modern thermals and the M1A2SEP FLIR it doesn't make a bit of difference. As far as the "in open terrain airpower rules" comment, man, how many more times do I have to hear this. If that was the case why the hell did we have to go dig the Iraqi's out in 1991 and 2003. Without control of the air you lose, with control of the air your ground forces can then proceed to do their job. Sorry, Carlton Meyer is a bonehead and half his "facts" are just plain wrong.
 
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elcid    Why is the, hands down, best tank in the world not here?   3/20/2004 8:46:20 AM
I even posted it twice - and the posts vaporized! Someone trying to keep it secret? The best tank in the world is also its most expensive. It can articulate, to take maximum advantage of terrian. It shoots the same rounds as we do three times as fast. You would not like to face one on a battlefield. What tank is that? The Mitsubishi Type 90 (a joint US-Japanese development, but they took more expensive options than we did).
 
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Jeffrey    RE:Why is the, hands down, best tank in the world not here?   3/20/2004 10:56:07 AM
Can you tell me what your sources are,because the way you are talking,you must know almost everything about this tnak right? Why do you think that this tank is THE best?
 
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dabrownguy    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   3/20/2004 1:35:14 PM
I think the list would go like this, 1. M1A2-with out a doubt(greatest tank) 2. Leapord 2(unproven but great) 3. Markeva 4(to good of tank) 4. Challenger(proven tank) 5. Leclrec(great tech) 6. Arjun (powerfull gun and ATGM) 7. T-90 (great ATGM and Shotra system) 8. Type 98 (good defence) 9. T-80 (proven) 10. ....
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Why is the, hands down, best tank in the world not here?   3/20/2004 2:57:59 PM
>>It shoots the same rounds as we do three times as fast.<< Do you have any proof of this claim? I've never seen anyone claim the Type 90 can fire one round every two seconds, or faster, which is what it would have to be capable of to even presume to justify this statement. Overall, the Type 90 seems a reasonably good current generation tank, but the usual entrants at the top end of the top tank list outperform it in various ways. I have not seen any compelling evidence that it deserves the #1 spot.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   3/20/2004 3:03:04 PM
>>I think the list would go like this, 1. M1A2-with out a doubt(greatest tank) 2. Leapord 2(unproven but great) 3. Markeva 4(to good of tank) 4. Challenger(proven tank) 5. Leclrec(great tech) 6. Arjun (powerfull gun and ATGM) 7. T-90 (great ATGM and Shotra system) 8. Type 98 (good defence) 9. T-80 (proven) 10. ... << I've said it before, I'll say it again. Earlier marks of a number of tanks you listed here are superior to others. For example, a Desert Storm era M1A1 will beat a current T-80 or T-90, ditto a Challenger 1, a Merkava 2 or 3, etc. As for the Arjun is it even still in the development process? My understanding was that India killed the program when they bought T-90s.
 
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dabrownguy    RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!!   3/20/2004 4:42:54 PM
RE:top 10 tanks in the world!!! 3/20/2004 3:03:04 PM >>I think the list would go like this, 1. M1A2-with out a doubt(greatest tank) 2. Leapord 2(unproven but great) 3. Markeva 4(to good of tank) 4. Challenger(proven tank) 5. Leclrec(great tech) 6. Arjun (powerfull gun and ATGM) 7. T-90 (great ATGM and Shotra system) 8. Type 98 (good defence) 9. T-80 (proven) 10. ... << I've said it before, I'll say it again. Earlier marks of a number of tanks you listed here are superior to others. For example, a Desert Storm era M1A1 will beat a current T-80 or T-90, ditto a Challenger 1, a Merkava 2 or 3, etc. As for the Arjun is it even still in the development process? My understanding was that India killed the program when they bought T-90s The Arjun is actually on going development, it never stoped. If you didn't know, Isreal is helping DRDO work out the engine prob which I heard is fixed. The Arjun can fire a Isreali Lahat ATGM 6 km guided by other tanks and heles form the rifled gun which is the first tank to do that in the world.
 
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