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Subject: Advantages/Disadvantages of a walking tank
theBird    5/22/2007 1:05:43 AM
Similar to a mech, (or mecha for the Japanesse minded), an armoured walking vehicle anywhere from 5 to 15 meters tall and armed with a variety of heavy and light weapons, either with a single pilot or multi-person crew. Alternatively a walking bradley armed with bradley type weapons and able to deliver a squad to the room of shorter buildings.
 
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StobieWan       5/25/2010 7:42:57 AM
Why would walkers be a game changer in that respect ? What terrain do you think a walker can get over that a tank can't?  And why can't heliborne tank hunter teams deliver the same result? I don't see it - walking machines get bogged down in soft ground, have lower bridging capacity for a similar size machine, have no better performance on inclines and may in fact be much worse depending on their power to weight ratio. Worse, for the same size machine, a walking vehicle will have much more of it's surface exposed to fire and thus have a lower thickness of armour available per cubic metre of internal volume.

The idea is a bust...
 

 

Ian

 

 

2) A walker is sensitive to terrain and ground pressure, but in different ways than a tank. Normally you plan using your AT-assets in terrain that allows efficient use of tanks; so walkers could force the enemy to expect breakthrough attempts almost everywhere.






 
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Mikko       5/25/2010 8:02:36 AM


Why would walkers be a game changer in that respect ? What terrain do you think a walker can get over that a tank can't?  And why can't heliborne tank hunter teams deliver the same result? I don't see it - walking machines get bogged down in soft ground, have lower bridging capacity for a similar size machine, have no better performance on inclines and may in fact be much worse depending on their power to weight ratio. Worse, for the same size machine, a walking vehicle will have much more of it's surface exposed to fire and thus have a lower thickness of armour available per cubic metre of internal volume.

The idea is a bust...

 
Ian


2) A walker is sensitive to terrain and ground pressure, but in different ways than a tank. Normally you plan using your AT-assets in terrain that allows efficient use of tanks; so walkers could force the enemy to expect breakthrough attempts almost everywhere.

Bust it is, I agree. However referring to your question, I was mostly thinking of performance on inclines. There are also environments where tank is unable to rotate its turret due to trees or tightly positioned buildings.
 
Also the ability to use human built infrastructure in ways that doesn't demolish it is a plus. A collapsing hut is a giveaway of a tank, a much lighter mech standing on top of the hut is - in addition to providing excellent target practice to the enemy - a cool looking surprise.
 
I am not trying to say walkers are a good idea. I'm merely saying that there might be something to gain in them in the coming centuries, and trying to find the right angles. 
 
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WarNerd       5/26/2010 6:02:55 AM

Bust it is, I agree. However referring to your question, I was mostly thinking of performance on inclines. There are also environments where tank is unable to rotate its turret due to trees or tightly positioned buildings.

Also the ability to use human built infrastructure in ways that doesn't demolish it is a plus. A collapsing hut is a giveaway of a tank, a much lighter mech standing on top of the hut is - in addition to providing excellent target practice to the enemy - a cool looking surprise.

Unless you have anti-grav, a 5+meter mech will be standing in the hut, having fallen through the roof.
 
In areas with trees the mech is likely to have more problems than a tank, with years/decades of animals and humans have trimmed out the lower branches leaving openings for infantry and ground vehicles, but still maintaining a solid canopy for shade, air cover, and blocking the movement of tall mechs.
 
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Mikko       5/26/2010 9:43:29 AM
I have tried my best to find an aspect that would shed some hope for the concept of a bipedal walker as a fighting unit, but all my efforts seem to have failed - even in my own opinion.
 
As a swan song to my feeble effort I state that as long as it can operate in stairways and fit through doorways, take punishment from assault guns and buckshots and withstand shrapnel from hand grenades, and other anti-personnell explosives used in indoors fighting, then there is a need for such suit. Is that a mecha? Probably not, I guess you English speakers would call it an exoskeleton. 
 
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doggtag       5/26/2010 10:50:14 AM

I have tried my best to find an aspect that would shed some hope for the concept of a bipedal walker as a fighting unit, but all my efforts seem to have failed - even in my own opinion.

 

As a swan song to my feeble effort I state that as long as it can operate in stairways and fit through doorways, take punishment from assault guns and buckshots and withstand shrapnel from hand grenades, and other anti-personnell explosives used in indoors fighting, then there is a need for such suit. Is that a mecha? Probably not, I guess you English speakers would call it an exoskeleton. 




You are on to something, though:
as UAV development is perhaps leading to a production aircraft that could be manned or flown unmanned (remote/teleoperation or a fully autonomous drone AI),
perhaps a ground system along those lines could be produced as well.
 
If we have a powered exosuit, theoretically does it really need a human operator inside it at all times?
 
If properly configured, a powered armor suit could effectively operate in autonomous or teleoperated mode like some enlarged super battle droid, for situations where we don't want to risk human personnel.
Other times, the extra situational awareness of a person inside the armor might be useful for other missions.
 
Certainly bares further consideration.
But if it would work for aircraft why not ground systems.
 
BAE's Black Knight could be the first step in that direction, even if it's a tracked vehicle rather than a walker (and doesn't have enough room inside for a proper crew).
Still, armed light tanks that can be manned as needed (extra situational awareness at the scene) or unmanned (danger levels increase) is a step in that direction...
We just need to justify making it walk.
Since right now the best we can do is a slow, lumbering gait (pun intended....query the John Deere Walking Tree Harvester, a 6-legged grasshopper-looking thing designed for minimal footprint (another pun intended) in forest-harvesting operations...for the life of me, I can't find a single useful link that isn't video I can't view at work...),
...can we make it faster in the future, without making it too tactically useless because of its height, noise (heavy stomping feet at high speeds), or ground pressure...?
 
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StobieWan       5/26/2010 5:26:06 PM
depends on what you want to do - there are already autonomous and remotely guided vehicles that are small, light and cheap that can do recon and penetrate buildings etc, so I can't see how fitting them with legs helps? There are some great track designs that can mount stairs, mantle heights much taller than they are, and can tolerate being flipped upside down and carry on working fine. 

I think there's an opening for some sort of exoskeleton which would be compact, light, and be capable of forced entry to buildings, can take a few hits from machine gun fire, carry breaching gear or support weapons and which could stiffen up regular infantry in tight quarters. None of this multiple metres tall routine - robust enough to shoulder a reinforced door down, nimble enough to tackle staircases, strong enough to push aside hasty barricades inside buildings or in cramped streets would be fine. All in weight including an operator, no more than 200 kg, lots of light composites, good strong bastion style armour protection  with a good sensor suite, useful communications and networking so that regular infantry nearby can use it as a comms link with much more powerful radio, and IED jamming capability.

It'd still struggle with wooden stair cases and light flooring but most urban environments with concrete ground floors and stair cases would be accessible, it'd have a useful stiffening effect for an infantry squad working with it.

I'm thinking out loud here tho :)

Ian

 
 
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flamingknives       5/26/2010 5:29:06 PM
Perhaps this should be in the Sci-Fi section - that would lead to more exploration of the art of the possible.

In what circumstances would a walker be feasible or even a good idea?
Case 1:
A high ECM and HKDAS environment means that the only thing getting through is energy weapons and robust unguided projectiles. Good sensor arrays mean that stuff gets spotted quickly so anything at close range will get engaged and hit in short order. The inherent dispersion means that even a half millirad dispersion is going to measure a good few metres at extreme ranges, so one way of limiting hits by incoming fire is to be further away. In order to see from further away, you need to be taller, all else being equal. Plus an agile walker could move unpredictably vs conventional munitions (less so vs. energy weapons) with their extended flight times.

Case 2:
Grossly asymmetric scenarios. I've got Abrams level armour, you've got BTR152s and infantry. With my sensors, weapons and assorted systems up high, I can get greater effect and I can stop pesky suicide squads having a crack at any exhaust ports or vulnerable systems. Legs and actuators can be very strong and armoured. Bear in mind that tracks are a collection of vulnerable joints, while legs have only four or five.

Case 3:
Neural linkage. Connecting a human mind to a combat system directly to achieve greater efficiency. Perhaps this is easier with an anthropoid form.

Case 4:
Smaller scale - as per a larger exoskeleton - could be useful in closer terrain if agility is similar to human mobility. Side stepping, crouching, climbing and stepping over obstacles offer an advantage against regular vehicles.

Case 5:
Shields. Energy fields exist and are practically effective, but the ground interferes with the effectiveness, so you put all your vital systems in clear air (come to think of it, that could apply to HK DAS as well) to obtain maximum protection.

There are probably more, but that's all I can think of for large walkers.
 
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AThousandYoung       5/26/2010 8:47:15 PM
A walker can step over obstacles.  How would the tank-crane handle that? It has to stay down low all the time (except the arm).
The swampwalker could use some of it's many limbs to hold trees and the like.  Sensors would be used to identify the best footholds...
 
Of course if it was possible now there would be American battlemechs.  We are all looking at this from the sci fi perspective (but based on real science).  Jules Verne style.
 
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AThousandYoung       5/26/2010 11:29:42 PM
A walker can step over obstacles.  How would the tank-crane handle that? It has to stay down low all the time (except the arm).
The swampwalker could use some of it's many limbs to hold trees and the like.  Sensors would be used to identify the best footholds...
 
Of course if it was possible now there would be American battlemechs.  We are all looking at this from the sci fi perspective (but based on real science).  Jules Verne style.
 
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WarNerd       5/27/2010 1:22:44 AM

I think there's an opening for some sort of exoskeleton which would be compact, light, and be capable of forced entry to buildings, can take a few hits from machine gun fire, carry breaching gear or support weapons and which could stiffen up regular infantry in tight quarters. None of this multiple metres tall routine - robust enough to shoulder a reinforced door down, nimble enough to tackle staircases, strong enough to push aside hasty barricades inside buildings or in cramped streets would be fine. All in weight including an operator, no more than 200 kg, lots of light composites, good strong bastion style armour protection  with a good sensor suite, useful communications and networking so that regular infantry nearby can use it as a comms link with much more powerful radio, and IED jamming capability.

It'd still struggle with wooden stair cases and light flooring but most urban environments with concrete ground floors and stair cases would be accessible, it'd have a useful stiffening effect for an infantry squad working with it.

I'm thinking out loud here tho :)

Ian

Unless you can make the exoskeleton as maneuverable as an infantry soldier you do not what it first through the door, speed of action is critical there.  Smash the door and step to the side like the guy with the ram.  Heavier weapons also do not help if their length makes them difficult to maneuver on target.  That's why they use stubby assault rifles (like the M-4), submachine guns, or even pistols for forced entry teams in house-to-house fighting. 
 
Also, by the time an exoskeleton can be fielded, someone, probably the Chinese, will make a cheap image seeking round specifically to target them.
 
Best use will be as cargo haulers (mostly ammo and wounded) or support (a one man MMG or missile team).  The idea of using them as a central communications node sounds good, but they would be a highly visible target you need to keep out of harms way, so the cargo hauler option works best for that.
 
One other interesting point to consider is that you could reduce the overall size, which would reduce the armor required and increase the weight available for other needs if you use petite women for pilots.
 
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