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Subject: What was the best 2nd Generation MBT
Bob Roberts    2/5/2013 12:54:18 PM
First off I readily admit that this is a somewhat childish if not inane question to ask in that it doesn't take into account such things as doctrine, crew training, and other such intangibles. That said I've always been rather interested in the tanks that were fielded during the 60s in that it appears designers had to make tradeoffs in regards to the traditional measurables of mobility, armor and firepower that tanks are usually judged by and that designs such as the T-34 & Panther of WWII possessed or MBT third generation designs such as the Abrams & Leo II. They all seemed to be lacking in some way, the Chieftain had great firepower and good armor but apparently had a unreliable engine & wasn't the most mobile platform, the Leo 1 had great mobility and good firepower but it's armor was minimal in comparison to other designs, the M60 probably meshed all three traits together as well as could be expected given the constraints of the day but apparently had a high silhouette and may have had some flammability issues vis a vis it's hydraulically powered turret. As for criteria you can use the traditional measurables of mobility, armor, and firepower or some other standard such as fire control.
 
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JFKY    Re: the M-60   2/5/2013 1:59:39 PM
The one thing about the M-60 and it's flammability issues, is they were discovered in combat...no one talks about the Chieftain's flammability issues or the Leopard 1's because they weren't shot at....
 
My point being, the M-60 was combat-tested and none of the others were, so we really don't know all the flaws they (might) have manifested, whereas we do know about the M-60's.
 
I'd give the "nod" to the M-60...good armour, good fire power, good mobility...trying for a balance, much more so than the Brit's or the Germans.  Lastly, the height wasn't that much of an issue...it allowed the M-60 to assume a better hull-down position, making it LESS vulnerable, not more...at least in comparison to its Soviet counterparts.
 
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Belisarius1234    The Chieftain was never shot at.   2/5/2013 2:31:48 PM
 
It had its chance. 
 
As to the M-60, the Russian T-62, its contemporary was as formidable. Both tanks met each other. Both tanks were designed to be used in different ways. The Arabs were incompetents (still are). The Israelis weren't and aren't. 
 
Winner, due to superior training and better understanding of its crews as to how the tank was supposed to be used, M-60, (by a narrow margin.)
 
B.
 
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JFKY    The T-62   2/5/2013 3:08:52 PM
was much more of a disappointment than success...certainly not the tank the T-54/55 was.  The gun wasn't that great, the tracks shedded, it was NOT ground-breaking nor amazingly better than the T-55.  It certainly had a shorter front line life than the T-55.
 
Now I would give the T-54/55 the "nod" as the best first generation MBT.  Just not the T-62 in the second, and probably not to either the Chieftain or the Leopard I, though both were built to operate as their forces doctrinally wanted.  I just don't think the doctrine was right.
 
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Belisarius1234    And this describes the M-60   2/5/2013 3:45:02 PM
over the M-48 any differently?
 
B.
 
 
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JFKY    The M-60   2/5/2013 3:55:32 PM
had fewer problems than the T-62, is all I'm saying.  And I would make it the best 2nd gen. MBT.
 
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Belisarius1234    Leopard 1.   2/6/2013 7:45:04 PM
More reliable engine, better fire control. 
 
 
B.
 
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Slim Pickinz       2/7/2013 6:31:30 PM
Which tank had the better armament? The M-60 and Leo 1 with their 105mm rifled guns, or the T-62s 115mm smoothboore?
 
 
I would assume the 115mm is better, but was the 105mm coupled with Western fire control an overall better choice?
 
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WarNerd       2/8/2013 4:49:18 AM
Which tank had the better armament? The M-60 and Leo 1 with their 105mm rifled guns, or the T-62s 115mm smoothboore?
 
I would assume the 115mm is better, but was the 105mm coupled with Western fire control an overall better choice?
The 115mm had better penetration with its steel APDSFS round than the 105mm APDS, the 105mm was adequate to fight the T-62. But when the west introduced tungsten APDSFS rounds they had the advantage.
 
But besides Western fire control being better the munitions were inherently more accurate because of better design and quality control. Combined with the greater elevation and depression of the main gun in western designs the M-60 could fight at ranges the T-62 couldn’t even reach.
 
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