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Subject: KING TIGER VS T-29 US HEAVY TANK
duck    6/13/2004 7:02:51 AM
Which tank is better
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:KING TIGER VS T-29 US HEAVY TANK   10/30/2005 6:35:08 PM
shooter...her comes a comment without 100% certaity... Tungsten was in short supply in germany, but they still did use the rounds. read that continually over the yrs and from different sources... The british introduced a 6pdr ap/cr with a tungsten core the us and later british version was the apds...but was not fully deployed but still, even the STANDARD 90mm would still not have the performance with the apds that would be required to penetrate the KT on the front armour-but the question was, was the apds used with the 90mm during the war... the 90mm L/53 was good, but according to my book 'armoured firepower the devolpment of tank armament 1939-1945' by Peter Gudgin, still did not match the 75mm l/70 or the 88 on the flip side...I have always said dont believe one book or 2 books...in other books, i have read that the 90mm could not penetrate the panter above 400m, and had a hard time below....and I have seen that several places...ok, but I have also seen the performance tables for the 90mm with several types of ammo, and with apcr, they should have been able to defeat the panther easily at up to 1000+ yds, and with the apds, even closer... but I guess I have to go with the majority of what I have read and heard. and per this posting...the 90mm and below would not penetrate the kt at any range SEMPER FI
 
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Desertmole    RE:Data, Corrections and a Formula - Carl S   10/31/2005 12:29:34 AM
Carl S wrote: >>Ammo storage. Cant recall this criticism before. It did not seem to hamper Wittmann any.<< Wittmann lived and died on Tiger Is. I saw one of the King Tigers the Russians used for testing when I went to Kubinka in 1997. It was the first knocked out by Russian forces in the East. This had been studied extensively, but not tested to destruction. It still had the damage where it was hit when it was knocked out (a hit in the side of the turret and the hull, IIRC just above the suspension. The story we were told was that it was hit by a T-34/85 hiding in a haystack.
 
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Carl S    RE:Data, Corrections and a Formula - Carl S   10/31/2005 5:25:23 AM
On the 'Russian Battlefield' web site there is a photograph of a Tiger II with holes as you describe. Wonder what the odds are of it being the same tank
 
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Yimmy    RE:Data, Corrections and a Formula - Carl S   10/31/2005 8:57:50 AM
Well ive been in a King Tiger so nerrrr! :D
 
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Sepia    RE:Data, Corrections and a Formula - Carl S   10/31/2005 3:33:06 PM
Desertmole, the tank You saw in Kubinka is probably not the one hit from haystack. There is a story of that operation on the Russian buttlefield site (sorry bunkerdestroyer, I still find it a reliable source of info). The battle took place on morning 13.08.1944 near Polish town of Sandomir. Germans attacked with 11 KTs after lossing 9 to technical problems during a 2km drive from train station. The T34 that was hiding in a haystack has hit three KTs from 400m in their right side. I this was the first encounter with KT for Russians. The KTs that were taken to Kubinka for testing (numbers 102 and 152) were captured a few days later, being in working condition and abandoned by their crews. If You read Russian or just want to take look at some pictures here is the link to the tail of this fight. http://www.battlefield.ru/battles/battle16_r.html
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:Data, Corrections and a Formula - Carl S   10/31/2005 7:09:18 PM
could be.....the sides were easily penetrated by most of the major weapons at that time and the 85mm was good enough to do it on the side at at 1500-1800m
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:Data, Corrections and a Formula - Carl S   10/31/2005 7:15:05 PM
I dont have a problem believing most weapons can take out a KT from a side shot....and there is no reason to believe this-n-that were ambushed. Ambushes have a way of doing alot of death and destruction. Even the vaunted m-1 is vunerable from the side/rear. If ambushed, a t-54 could take it out from a side shot(hull, probably not turrent)-hell, a t-34/76 l-31.5 or a mk IV might be able to knock it out with a side hull shot, and def. a rear shot... now face to face, that is a diff. story
 
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Weasel    t-34/85's and haystacks- sepia   11/1/2005 1:12:47 PM
That is a similar story that I heard on a documentary some years ago. They interviewed the tank commander in question and he described it as being in a field next to a haystack. He couldn't believe his luck to have 3 KT's so close and so exposed without them having killed him first. His first shot took out a KT outright and the smoke from that first kill allowed him to get the next 2. All the while he praised "the new round" he and his tank were supplied with. From the way he described it, it sounded like a long rod penetrator, but I never did find out what it was.
 
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Sepia    RE:t-34/85's and haystacks- sepia   11/2/2005 3:43:21 PM
"All the while he praised "the new round" he and his tank were supplied with..." That is probably a subcaliber shell. You can see a picture at the bottom of: http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_85.html
 
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Weasel    RE:t-34/85's and haystacks- sepia   11/3/2005 1:25:20 PM
UBR-365P... That is it! Thanks Sepia.
 
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