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Subject: Russian T90 vs. US M1A2 Abrams
achtpanz    6/14/2004 3:59:14 AM
Russian T90 vs American M1A2 Abrams - Which is better? If these tanks fought in battle, which would suffer more casualties, which one is superior? What are their advantages? Any information would be helpful.
 
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SantaClaws       4/11/2011 8:53:08 PM
Oh, and Russian air craft have unusually lopsided kill ratios, but they are negative. And I'm talking real ones, not simulated.
 
Here is a repost from
 
h**p://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/2272/Post-war-Russian-fighter-aircraft-air-air-success
 
okay, I had a chance to got through my stuff and here is what I have on air to air losses since 1979, based on info from ACIG.org:

MiG-21 45 kills/112 losses
MiG-23 24 kills/94 losses
MiG-25 8 kills/19 losses
MiG-29 6 kills/21 losses
Su-27 8 kills/no losses

Mirage F1 21 kills/40 losses
Mirage 2000 1 kill/0 losses
F-5E 19 kills/29 losses
F-4D/E 66 kills/32 losses
F-18 2 kills/1 loss
F-16 74 kills/1 loss
F-14 135 kills/12 losses
F-15 99 kills/0 losses
Harrier 20 kills/0 losses


From the info I got, not all weapons used in a kill were known or reported, but those that were were as followed:

Russian made AAM - 55

Magic - 20
R530 - 10

Shafir - 1
Phython3 - 23
Phython4 - 1


AMRAAM - 12
Phoenix - 68
Sparrow - 68
Sidewinder - 147

Overall, it looks like western pilots (US/UK/Israel) in western AC had a kill ratio of about 31:1. Western AC in the hands of less accomplished pilots had a kill ratio of about 2.5:1, while soviet designed AC had a kill ratio of about 1:3.

And these kills aren't just the US beating up Arab countries. It's Arab countries on other Arab countries etc etc. Ironically, the only Russian aircraft to have a positive kill ratio is the SU 27, which shot down Mig 29s...
 
Anyways, I know which one I'd rather be flying...
 
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earlm       4/11/2011 9:16:23 PM
Let's try to get the thread back on track.  I don't need any replies from fanboys but I don't expect high expertise either.
 
 
 1.  What are the views of how tanks work in warfare of the major combatants?
 
2.  How have the tanks in these countries evolved since 1945?  What are the common threads and when were there big leaps?
 
3.  Which country has the tank that best fits its needs?
 
4.  Which tank is the best all rounder?  That is, it can be used by the home country but also by many others.
 
 
1.  I don't know that much about ground tactics but I have read that the Germans view tanks as weapons used to maneuver into the enemy rear and use the machine gun and shock to tear things up.  The Brits viewed them as more mobile survivable firepower while the US viewed them more as mobile less survivable firepower.  No idea on the French but the AMX-30 looks to me like a modern version of medium cavalry.  The Soviet view seemed to be just  battering ram.
 
3.  The Chieftain was the best before the era of the supertank.
 
4.  Leopard 2 based on sales.
 
 
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SantaClaws       4/11/2011 9:24:43 PM
1. The US has moved its Calvary doctrine into Armored warfare. They spearhead attacks for deep penetrations and turn exposed flanks.
 
2. The Sherman in WWII was primarily an infantry support vehicle and the US used tank destroyers for tank killing. We've now switched to the MBT concept with mechanized infantry support in the form of M2 Bradleys.
 
4. The top 3 would probably be the Leopard 2, Challenger or Abrams. The T90/72 isn't worth mentioning since it can't do the MBT role as well as its western counterparts.
Let's try to get the thread back on track.  I don't need any replies from fanboys but I don't expect high expertise either.

 

 

 1.  What are the views of how tanks work in warfare of the major combatants?


 

2.  How have the tanks in these countries evolved since 1945?  What are the common threads and when were there big leaps?

 

3.  Which country has the tank that best fits its needs?


 

4.  Which tank is the best all rounder?  That is, it can be used by the home country but also by many others.

 

 

1.  I don't know that much about ground tactics but I have read that the Germans view tanks as weapons used to maneuver into the enemy rear and use the machine gun and shock to tear things up.  The Brits viewed them as more mobile survivable firepower while the US viewed them more as mobile less survivable firepower.  No idea on the French but the AMX-30 looks to me like a modern version of medium cavalry.  The Soviet view seemed to be just  battering ram.


 

3.  The Chieftain was the best before the era of the supertank.

 

4.  Leopard 2 based on sales.


 


 
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ColdStart    ok   4/11/2011 9:28:06 PM
lol if those mass media links with such info makes your sleep better. you go with that. but thinking that if you have air force, then you dont need air defense systems... well.... hmm.. ok im not gona even comment on that. mobile air defense is one of the crucial and important elements of ground forces these days, no matter what kind of air force you have.
 
earlm. dont stink.
 
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ColdStart    ok   4/11/2011 9:30:14 PM

The T90/72 isn't worth mentioning since it can't do the MBT role as well as its western counterparts.


hmm... trying to think what MBT role is there which it cant do. LOL. our rifles also cant do role of rifles? what else coming up. :)
 
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SantaClaws       4/11/2011 9:36:12 PM
You disagree with the Kremlim?!?! The KGB will be showing up at your door soon comrade.
 
And for your mobile air defense comment. No, not really. The last wars we fought we annihilated their air force within a few weeks and our ground guys operated without fear from the sky. FYI, planes only have so many places they can land. We can bomb those places.
lol if those mass media links with such info makes your sleep better. you go with that. but thinking that if you have air force, then you dont need air defense systems... well.... hmm.. ok im not gona even comment on that. mobile air defense is one of the crucial and important elements of ground forces these days, no matter what kind of air force you have.

 

earlm. dont stink.



 
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SantaClaws       4/11/2011 9:41:28 PM
And I am going to put more faith into the words of your Chief of the General Staff. He actually has military experience and is a General. You build radios and somehow believe that makes you a radar expert. *snicker*
 
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SantaClaws       4/11/2011 9:42:24 PM


hmm... trying to think what MBT role is there which it cant do.
Kill other tanks?
 
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ColdStart       4/12/2011 1:05:58 AM





hmm... trying to think what MBT role is there which it cant do.

Kill other tanks?

wow??
 
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ColdStart       4/12/2011 1:07:28 AM

You build radios and somehow believe that makes you a radar expert. *snicker*
Not expert, but a way more technically educated person in that area rather than others here.
 
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