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Subject: Russian T90 vs. US M1A2 Abrams
achtpanz    6/14/2004 3:59:14 AM
Russian T90 vs American M1A2 Abrams - Which is better? If these tanks fought in battle, which would suffer more casualties, which one is superior? What are their advantages? Any information would be helpful.
 
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SoldatLenina1917       2/22/2011 5:21:20 PM

The Abrams. The T-90 is nothing more than an upgraded T-72, renamed after the mauling the 72 received in Desert Storm. It is wholly inferior to the Abrams (and the Leo, Challenger, Merkava) in armor protection, firepower, electronics, and speed/acceleration.
The new generation T90 now has reactive armour and proximity sensors for rpg's Yes the M1-a2 has a classified composite ceramic armour that is the equal of 22 inches of steel that can stand up to any A.P. or H.E. ordinence
in the world Abrams even stands up to it's own sabot round. The t90 can take the 120 HE and Ap rounds but I doubt it can take that sabot. I climbed into a T90 while I was i Niznie Novgarod last summer I was almost as impressed as Cpt. Vasillie Orlov as he proudly showed off the tank he commands. The captian claims it will stand up to all US tank ordinence but the TOW. Real nice guy. I hope he never has to face an US 4th armor div M1a2. Don't think my future Wife wants to loose her little brother. Oh the Merk 4 of the IDF Has the engine up front and a little door astern to evac or deploy up to 4 soldatnie. The engine position makes it the best frontal armor in the world.
I was told the Red Army was soon to get a new tank T99? I wonder how they can pay for it.  
 
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Dmitri514    Let?s get to the facts.   2/27/2011 5:48:33 AM

Interesting... All the comments here say that Abrams is vastly superior to T-90 and can use it for target practice. Where did you get this information? Where is proof of what you say? Since there are practically no facts, numbers or references to professional sources in your comments, I guess you get it all from American TV shows? Don?t you :) I admire you patriotism, my American friends, but what about facts?

When I say t-90 I mean the latest model T-90A. For Abrams its M1A2SEP.

Let?s get some REAL information.  

1. T-90 is bought and is planned to buy by number of countries which can easily buy Abrams or already have them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90 For example, India bought 620 and plans to get 1000 more, Saudi Arabia plans to buy 150. Why these countries prefer t-90 to Abrams?

 

2. About T-90 being modernized version of T-72. Abrams was first produced in 1978. What Abrams is now is a modification of this very old model. But most importantly, T-90 got completely new electronics optics computers, including night vision sights, stabilized gun, basically similar to what the latest models of Abrams have, armor protection got 3 times more resistant than that of T-72 and new depleted uranium APFSDS rounds though still a bit inferior to the best USA rounds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

 

3. TV shows that you guys are watching is US propaganda presenting Abrams as superior to Russian tanks and best in the world. These shows are lying for 2 reasons: first there is a fierce competition between two biggest weapon exporters Russia and USA. These shows designed to convince foreign politicians not to buy Russian tanks. Second, tank crews perform best when they don?t fear being killed by enemy tanks and believe in they own tank protection.

 

4. Abrams like any other tank can easily be destroyed if shot from modern RPG or any other antitank weapon hits lightly protected sides, back or top. Some tanks in Iraq were damaged by well placed 0.5 inches machine gun rounds. ?Further combat was seen during 2003 when US forces invaded Iraq and deposed the Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. As of March 2005, approximately 80 Abrams tanks were forced out of action by enemy attacks? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

 
5. In a tank battle where non frontal shots happen, T-90 can easily destroy Abrams at ranges up to 6km by rocket fired from the main and by APFSDS rounds from 2000m and in some cases up to 9.4km ?Direct fire range is 6,561 feet (2,000 meters). Has a quadrant site that allows the Sabot (APSD) rounds to be fired indirectly out to 30,839 feet (9,400 meters).?

http://weapons.technology.youngester.com/2009/05/t90-main-battle-tank.html

Abrams of course can easily penetrate T-90 sides and back but T-90 will have big advantage thanks to its smaller size, height, smaller turret and of course gun launched rockets.

 

6. Catastrophic ammunition explosion of T-90 is overrated.

In Abrams 6 out of 40 main gun rounds are still placed inside the tank corps and in front of the loader. That can still cause catastrophic explosion. If back of the turret hit, explosion of the rounds will still put tank out of service. Often the blow out doors don?t work as intended and Abrams get destroyed by ammunition explosion. See photos in http://btvt.narod.ru/4/t-90vsabrams.htm

Not any penetration will cause catastrophic ammunition explosion of T-90 - only if penetration hits the ammunition. T-90 rounds are located not in the turret but in the tank corps which is much harder to hit.

 

Let?s go to the numbers

 

Maximum Protection

(Wikipedia)

Abrams

vs HEAT: 1,320?1,620 mm

vs APFSDS 940?960 mm

T-90

vs HEAT: 1,150-1,350mm

vs APFSDS: 800-830 mm;

 

Main gun

Abrams

Penetration

Based on reports that it could not penetrate front of Abrams tank even at point blank range should be less than 900 at 2000m.

Range, direct 2600-2800m

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Dmitri514    Links get screwd up. Here they are.   2/27/2011 5:54:00 AM
 
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Dmitri514    Links again.   2/27/2011 5:56:37 AM
Add h t t p : / / in front
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams
weapons.technology.youngester.com/2009/05/t90-main-battle-tank.html
btvt.narod.ru/4/t-90vsabrams.htm
btvt.narod.ru/4/M1.htm
 
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Dmitri514    Links again.   2/27/2011 5:59:49 AM
Add h t t p : / / in front
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams
weapons.technology.youngester.com/2009/05/t90-main-battle-tank.html
btvt.narod.ru/4/t-90vsabrams.htm
btvt.narod.ru/4/M1.htm
 
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Buzz       2/27/2011 10:24:42 AM
The T-62 is just the second major upgrade to the T-54. Has a bigger engine and main gun but its basically a T-54.  The T-90 is just an upgrade to the T-72 which was designed to be an export tank but ended up being fielded to army units because the T-64 and T-80 were to expensive to build and maintain. The 72 has a T62 engine in it. Because of reliability issues and structual weaknesses in the T-64/80 tanks the russian soldiers quickly started using only T-72s in Chechnya.
 
The T-90 can still only engage targets out to about 1700 meters like the T-72M with its main gun and (allegedly) 3000 meters with its tube launched AT missiles. Thats vs the unclassified engagment range of 3000 meters for the M-1A1 and 5000 meters for the latest varients.
 
The only advantage of having a T-90 is its cheaper and easier to maintain than the M-1's. Did you notice that in the early days of the problems in egypt you only saw M-60 tanks? That was partly because of the cost  to operate and maintain M-1s.
 
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Buzz       2/27/2011 3:20:51 PM
The T-54/54/62/2/90 engine is a copy of the detroit deisel engine we put in trucks for the lend lease program in the 30's. However the soviets made an old reliable design worse by building it with inferior materials. It will last forever and sit forever without starting but it burns as much oil as it does diesel. 
 
BTW the reason russian tanks smoke so bad (one of many) is they burn bunker witch is the last grade of oil that can be used as a fuel. Its also very cheap to produce.
 
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Buzz       2/27/2011 4:18:48 PM
Mike Golf wrote - The T-64 is a superior tank to the original T-72. 
 
True only on paper. I have spoken to ex russian army tankers who served in Chechnya and asked why I was only seeing T-72 tanks in use there. Thay all told me it was because the T-64's and 80's were unreliable and to easily destroyed by the chechens.  BTW in the first Gulf war we had a varified 5000 meter kill of a russian tank. The T-72M with its laser range finder can only engage out to 1700 meters.
 
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Buzz       2/27/2011 4:19:05 PM
Mike Golf wrote - The T-64 is a superior tank to the original T-72. 
 
True only on paper. I have spoken to ex russian army tankers who served in Chechnya and asked why I was only seeing T-72 tanks in use there. Thay all told me it was because the T-64's and 80's were unreliable and to easily destroyed by the chechens.  BTW in the first Gulf war we had a varified 5000 meter kill of a russian tank. The T-72M with its laser range finder can only engage out to 1700 meters.
 
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Buzz       2/27/2011 4:25:25 PM
- Oh the Merk 4 of the IDF Has the engine up front .
This tank has always suffered from reliability problems. An even bigger point to make is the Mk-4 cannot be put in this conversation because it doesnt fit the classification of an MBT. True it has some good features such as it is the only tank capable of patrolling by itself. However that it was designed to be used in a very specific environment of urban warfare and not tank on tank or open field warfare. Keep it in its mission parameters and its great.
 
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