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Subject: SSBNs No Longer a Secure Deterrent - How to Ensure a Secure Minimum Deterrent
Roman    2/4/2007 5:24:18 PM
SSBNs have long been regarded as the most secure leg of the nuclear triad providing a nuclear deterrent. As a result, some countries, and I am mostly thinking of Britain, have switched to a nuclear deterrent based solely on SSBNs. Recently, though, news of new technologies in submarine detection have begun surfacing. Some, such those described in the recent SP article, rely merely on major improvements in passive sonar technology, but others introduce wholly new forms of detection, including those based on shining 'laser' beams into the sea and detecting submarines on that basis (I am guessing through relfection patterns, but I am no expert). This is not to say that SSBNs will suddenly be easily foundable and destructible. I have, however, started to believe SSBNs or other submarine-based forms of nuclear deterrence relying in the undetectibility/stealth of submarines will become more vulnerable, as multipronged approaches to submarine detection begin to proliferate in the years to come. So, in the light of this, how would you ensure that the nuclear deterrents (of whichever country) remain secure? I guess nothing beats diversification and having a full nuclear triad with multiple types of approaches withing each leg of the triad (e.g. both hardened silo and mobile ICBMs for the land leg). This ensures that even if new technologies increase the vulnerability of one part of the deterrent the other parts compensate for it, but it is a very expensive solution. What would your suggestions be to deal with the issue?
 
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flamingknives       2/4/2007 5:27:21 PM
I'd suggest that there probably isn't room in the UK for a silo based system and too many people to make a mobile solution feasible.

Make submarines better.
 
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Herald1234    Shell game.   2/4/2007 5:35:37 PM
Make the TEL look like an ordinary truck or railroad car, or a container on a container ship.
 
Build air droppable ballistic missiles that a fighter or bomber can lug aloft and launch on five minute alert.
 
Smuggle a nuclear demolition mine into the deterrent target to be used inn your blackmail.
 
Stud the ocean floor with missile silos.
 
Etc................as nauseum.
 
Plant hundreds of dummies to mask the presence of the real ones in the above examples.
 
Herald  
 
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Roman       2/5/2007 11:19:33 AM
Making submarines better, would, obviosuly, have an impact, but some of the new detection methods, especially the ones not based on sound detection, might fundamentally alter the detection equation in the following decades and deterrent planning simply has to be conducted on this time-scale. No matter how silent you make your submarine, if it is not sound it is detected by... This is not to say that technologies will not be developed for submarines to defeat these new detection methods, which are after all still in their infancy, but it may prove difficult to do.
 
As a side note, it also illustrates the perils of reliance on only one leg of the triad, even if it was deemed secure in the past.
 
The delivery of nuclear weapons through shipping containers is certainly feasible (though I don't know what the TEL shortcut stands for) and likely would penetrate enemy defenses, but I am not completely certain that creation of nuclear weapons of a type that are highly suitable for terrorist use is very wise. Bear in mind that due to their very nature, container-nukes look like ordinary containers and might be mistaken for such not just by the enemy, but also your own people in a crisis. Imagine, if the container due to be loaded on a ship set to deliver it for a retaliatory strike on say China instead found its way to say a city of an allied country... I believe that a small but significant percentage (cca.1%) of containers are misdelivered. Besides, I can foresee the potential of the container being replaced by another like container and the real container-nuke being taken hold of by the terrorists. This is especially possible in states with less than rigorous control of their nuclear forces (such as Russia) or in states that decentralize their container-nukes in order to increase their survivability.
 
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scuttlebut steve    dont be stupid   2/16/2007 7:06:04 AM
look, even if anti-sub forces get much better at finding and destroying submarines (I seriously doubt they will ever get THAT good at it) you have to remember that there is a difference in detecting attack subs who are in shipping lanes or other choke points looking for surface targets and finding ballistic missile subs with extreme long range missiles that could be anywhere.....it still is a big ass ocean out there!
 
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french stratege       2/16/2007 6:59:57 PM
Modern nuclear subs have a noise level equal or inferior to the background noise of ocean.When they go slowly they can be detected only by a high quality ennemy SSN if lucky.
With long range missiles SSBN can be anywhere.
How you can expect to locate 2 or 3 supersilent SSBN anywhere in the world?
They are far less vulnerable than any bomber or silo missiles to a preamptive strike.
And mobile missiles are politically difficult to disperse in peace time and are even vulnerable when your country is small to antimissiles based on sea.
I don't see magnetic detector, or IR detector to be more efficient than a sonar.
 
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flamingknives       2/22/2007 3:08:22 PM
Dispersal of atomic weaponry is fraught with danger. The real ones aren't secure, so if someone goes looking, they might find them.
 
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andyf       5/13/2007 2:43:27 PM
silos is probably the best idea. and lots of fakes as well. plenty of room in scotland
 
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Yimmy       5/14/2007 10:17:18 AM
Silos are not a good idea.
 
It is easier to find a silo than it is to find a moving submarine.
 
Even if you know where the submarine is, you still have to destroy it - before it can launch.
 
 
 
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Roman       5/29/2007 8:54:36 PM
The submarine, however, puts many (though I hesitate to say 'too many') eggs in one basket. It essentially has 12 or more missiles all in one place that can be destroyed in one blow - that is a quarter of the deterrent gone in a stroke and the remaining three submarines in ports would be even easier targets.  Suppose there were instead 4 x 12 ICBMs on mobile launchers that were moving around the country independently and making use of camouflage. I think this could be a viable alternative and be cheaper to boot.
 
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paul1970       5/30/2007 4:39:57 AM

The submarine, however, puts many (though I hesitate to say 'too many') eggs in one basket. It essentially has 12 or more missiles all in one place that can be destroyed in one blow - that is a quarter of the deterrent gone in a stroke and the remaining three submarines in ports would be even easier targets.  Suppose there were instead 4 x 12 ICBMs on mobile launchers that were moving around the country independently and making use of camouflage. I think this could be a viable alternative and be cheaper to boot.



cheaper for sure...
 
but who wants mobile missile launchers in their back yard. (greenham common comes to mind and trails of nutters following what they think are the missiles)........   they would be easily tracked by someone with determination and tech. they are subject to lower level tech strike at them.
 
how about subs and remote site static launch as well....  may as well have the ability to launch a few more and coordinating a strike at the land and subs at same time would be almost impossible...
 
Paul
 
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