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Subject: Armoured logistical vehicles/soft skin trucks
M4A3E2(76)W    6/20/2003 12:09:16 AM
I think it only makes sense to have both armoured logistical vehicles and soft skin trucks in use. My question is, when and what for do you use the armoured logistical vehicles and when/what for do you use soft skin trucks?
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:Armoured logistical vehicles/soft skin trucks    6/20/2003 8:18:48 PM
I kinda would like the answer as well. I'm not a armor guy, so I have some holes in my knowledge. Assuming I am in a "combined" battalion, here is how I see it (remember, this is "my" to&e, not a actual mixed/matched company). Battalion HQ and his "reserve" tank platoon of 14 M1s, along with 8 SP arty is in the rear somewhere, providing fire support to the companies. Assume all three companies are engaged for the moment. Company has 9 M1s, 13 M2s and 2 Mortars. From other posts, those M1s have roughly 40 rounds each. What happens when the M1s run out of ammo? I ask this because I know the SP Arty has some sort of armored vehicle that carries ammo for it. So when those vehicles are empty, they go to brigade and get more ammo, while the SP Arty has a full load. So what do the tankers do? Brigade has a Supply Battalion, so is one company feeding ammo to the brigade, battalion or even company? Curious how you armor guys do it.
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Brigade CSS operations   6/24/2003 8:28:54 AM
In the US Army, the forward support battalion attached to the brigade is organized like this: HQ & Supply Company Maintenance Company Medical Company Supply company runs fuel, water/rations supply points and an ammunition transfer point (ATP). The FSB supply points often are run by soldiers from that unit but the trucks/tractors/trailers/ racks are in fact from corps support units. This is especially true of ammunition. The ATP only stocks high tonnage/high useage ammo, i.e., tank 120mm, 155mm arty, 25mm BFV and TOW missiles. The support platoon from the attached infantry/armor comes to the the ATP/supply points and loads up there. Then they are convoyed forward to the line companies who are usually resupplied in service station type operation (this works both in heavy and light forces) The FA Battalions have an entire service battery run by a captain that suppliesw the 3 firing batteries with ammo. The ammo supply vehicle you refer to is the M992. There is 1 per SP M109A6 howitzer and is an integral part of the firing battery (18 guns/18 M992s) gun crews (think the limbers/caissons in Civil War era artillery). The service battery is equipped with 21 PLS trucks. Now to your original question...part of the problem of loggie vehicles is they tend to be multi-use. Hard to armor them too much since you have to be able to remove the side panels for over size loads. You also have to be careful not to put too much armor on them and cut into their hauling capability (you'd be surprised at how quickly you can over gross a 5 ton truck). May have to use Kevlar armor and increase the protection/training for the vehicle crews. Maybe also throw in a few of SHaka's cavalry? :-) Actually, this is seriously under study these days. Division CSS troops usualyy can handle and fight their way forward because of the training they get at JRTC/NTC/CMTC. It is the corps level CSS folks who have had the most trouble.
 
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macawman    RE:Brigade CSS operations-Albany Rifles   6/25/2003 1:58:42 AM
What are the load factors at the various organizational levels for different types of logistic supply for the US military. Most foreign military supply organizations strive to maintain a load factor of 3 at the various command levels. Is that factor typical for the US operations?
 
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Thomas    RE:Brigade CSS operations-Albany Rifles   6/25/2003 2:07:45 AM
macawman: what is meant by load factor?
 
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macawman    RE:Brigade CSS operations-Albany Rifles   6/25/2003 8:27:32 AM
Load factor: The % amount resupply ratio of fuel,ammo,rations,ie. expendables used to replace the basic issue which are located at various supply organizational levels. Example, the basic fuel load for the Abrams is 500 gals. of JP-8. Usually the Corp/Div supply fuel point would have 3 times the basic load of fuel for all the Abrams tanks in the Div before a major operation started. While at Company level, there would only be .5% resupply of the basic load of expendables. The reason load factor has significance is that it indicates the potential sustainability of a unit in combat. Note: without transport means, the load factor ratios would be worthless in determining potential unit sustainability.
 
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Thomas    RE:Brigade CSS operations-Albany Rifles   6/25/2003 8:44:23 AM
Ok load factor = how many "reloads" of different stuff is available. Problem is getting it there. Do You have the same load factor for all kinds of supplies? If an armoured force achieves a breakthrough it is more liable to need fuel than grenades. And vise versa: If you are awaiting a hostile assault, you are more liable to need ammunition than fuel. Secondly. do you keep the same load factor for all arms. F.i. It could be more advantageous to stock light infantry higher, as heir supplies are cheaper and lighter.
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Brigade CSS operations-Albany Rifles   6/25/2003 6:27:40 PM
Thomas, thanks for asking the question Okay, the way the US Army (and in my experience, most Western armies) works is you want to keep the supplies forward to a minimum. In the JP8 supply point of a US Brigade, you have 55,000 gallons (11 x 5,000 gallon tankers) of JP-8 to refill the fuel trucks of the infantry/armor battalion fuel vehicles (2,500 gallon HEMTT tankers). The battalion owns the fuel trucks, not the companies, Reallocate as needed. Same applies to other suppply categories. If you need more fuel/ammo/water/chow than the supply unit can supply in one day, corps pushes assets forward to fill need. A forward support battalion stocks 1 day or less of most needed commodities
 
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Thomas    RE:Brigade CSS operations-Albany Rifles   6/26/2003 3:24:05 AM
And they get the need estimate from the daily reports - OK
 
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macawman    RE:Brigade CSS operations-Albany Rifles   6/26/2003 5:52:00 PM
It appears that modern western armys PUSH more supplies forward than retain stocks in the forward area. This is due to our large number of advanced transport vechicles and command/comunications/computer (C3)systems.
 
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macawman    RE:Brigade CSS operations-Thomas   6/26/2003 7:27:05 PM
Point 2: It is not based upon price or cheapness. Supplies are pushed forward based upon essential needs to accomplish the mission. That need is determined by the chief logistian (S-4 or G-4)officer with the consent of the Commander. You answered point 1.
 
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