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Subject: We DON't need no more expensive C-17s!!
leerw    4/19/2005 10:59:31 AM
1. What have I learned from first-hand experience is: we have got enough wide body/heavy lift aircraft and don't need more! The Army/Marines need on an every day basis is trooplifters. The Marines in WestPac needed to move a battalion around and couldn't because AMC a) didn't have the birds, b) birds weren't in-theater (and you know who pays for repositioning them), c) bird daily costs were way too high, and d) the civilian charters could only accommodate about 2 dozen Marines at a time without weapons or gear! 2. The Army has the same problems elswhere, i.e moving battalion sized units around inside theathers. And that is why there is now Joint HSV acquisition project to buy 50 to 90 of them. A lot more capability for a lot less money. 3. Super big airlifters make NO sense when you are talking about inter- vice intra theater moves. Rumy's plan to bring the troops home will just make the airlift problem worse, and we will spend more money on fuel and we will need more airstrips abroad to land at, more $$$$ wasted. 4. Now think back, how many times in recent memory have airlifters been used to land tactical equipment in a combat zone? You can count them on one hand! This whole "my airplane can lift a tank" is a load of crap! It is an unnecessary capability! What the troops need is more C-130s. What their commanders want is a company of tanks or ASVs all at once driving up the road. In case you haven't noticed, the Army is having an incredibly hard time buying armored vehicles that are within airlifter payload limits. I say scrap the whole idea! 5. Fact: 95% of ALL materials have gotten to all conflicts since WWII by Sealift, not airlift. Tactical airlift is definitely needed, stategic airlift plays a limited role.
 
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   RE:We DON't need no more expensive C-17s!!   4/19/2005 10:28:02 PM
Hey leerw, The C-17 can land with equal or greater load anywhere a c-130 can, though it was designed for rear area use. I believe the USAF should deploy c-17 and MV-22 with KC-17 and KC-130j. This would allow three transports/tankers in production at one time and would extend the C-130 and C-17 production runs! To me this is all about economics of what we need at useful cost levels and production runs that are useful!!! Sincerely, Keith
 
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blacksmith    RE:We DON't need no more expensive C-17s!!   5/8/2005 12:07:42 AM
Sounds like a Lockheed salesman.
 
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perfectgeneral    RE:We DON't need no more expensive C-17s!!   5/8/2005 10:02:02 PM
If you want to shift a batallion, how about an A380? You can squeeze 800men into one of those babies. Get this. Airbus plan to do a military turbo prop version (A400M) that can land on anything in a short distance. Why shop at home when you can buy the best? The 36 ton payload should manage some fast light armour too.
 
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Thomas    RE:perfectgeneral    5/9/2005 4:21:19 AM
Not exactly: A soldier with personel equipment take 1½ seat and the A380 can land at very few airfields; but otherwise using civilian airliners for operational deployment of personel is right.
 
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hybrid    RE:We DON't need no more expensive C-17s!!   5/11/2005 3:48:37 AM
A-380 cant land at a lot of airports even when its fully utilized. Nor can it be double for military cargo lift (its not built for it and the designers never went down that route). For heavy freight it suffers some problems there too but it can carry quite a bit. In those circumstances the current US civil air reserve is enough at the moment to meet current needs.
 
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blacksmith    RE:We DON't need no more expensive C-17s!!   5/11/2005 8:32:20 AM
There are like 20 airports that can handle the A380. Pick your wars carefully or your troops will have to walk a long way. Please explain the advantage of the turboprop A400 vs. a C-17 for transporting troops and equipment long distances. And just how 'anywhere' can the A400 land vs. any other military transport ever built? Is it VTOL? STOVL? STOL? It looks an awful lot like a C-130. What let's it go where a C-130 can't that makes it 'the best'? The C-5 was supposed to be able to land anywhere. I would be surprised if they ever touched dirt.
 
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Winds of Change.NET    RE:We DON't need no more expensive C-17s!!   5/11/2005 4:52:01 PM
A couple misconceptions here. First, the A400M is NOT derived from the A380. It is larger than a Hercules, however, which improves its ability to carry APCs because they can just "roll-on/roll-off" instead of having to be broken down and then put back together again. The U.S. is having a hard time with that, which is affecting things like the Stryker program not meeting its transportability targets. Not to mention considerations like their ability to move battalion size units around. This (plus range limitations) is whyis why C-17s are often used when a C-130 might do, worsening the problem. Actually, the A400M looks like an excellent aircraft. If I had to choose between the C-130J and A400M, I probably take the A400. Would be interesting to do a lifecycle cost-comparison with the A400M and C-17, though. leerw is right that sea deployment is still the big thing, though. I'd take a close look at WestPac's use of Austal's new catamaran and trimaran ships, which can get battalion size units to their destinations in a hurry, then roll them off at even "sparse" ports. Deployability will be a big concern over the next decade. It will mean upgrades to sealift, airlift, and tankers in order to do the job properly, and each of those will cost money. Money that has to come from somewhere, and that pressure will create difficult times ahead.
 
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blacksmith    RE:We DON't need no more expensive C-17s!!   5/12/2005 7:34:33 PM
No misconception here. The A380 was brought up in a previous post. The A400 questions were only directed at the A400.
 
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perfectgeneral    RE:A400m Vs C17   6/6/2005 9:39:38 PM
a)It doesn't mind getting its wheels muddy. b)STOL c)smaller, but big enough for the job (cf C130j). d)cheaper to run (purchase, service, run, lifecycle cost). You can kit one out with combat 'crash' seating for 500, over two decks, no problem.
 
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Heorot    RE:A400m Vs C17 PerfectGeneral.   9/7/2005 7:57:44 AM
Can you clarify which aircraft the four points refered to. I assume that it was the A400M.
 
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