In Vietnam, the jungle pointman was often assigned a shotgun. If you look around for R. Lee Ermeys webpage (or possibly a fanpage) there's a picture of him from 'Nam with a shotgun. Shotgun is a dense terrain weapon. It's also a entry weapon? Shotgun could use Hatton breaching rounds (would you use your precious grenades for this?) I would see any type of underslung shotgun complementing the M203. But not much ammo for it, as it does not replace rifles, and probably never could except for a limited mission.

WinsettZ is correct. Ask any SWAT type group how you open a locked door. Dense terrain being urban areas as well as jungle or thick forests. Guys carrying the M203 are lucky if they are packing 20 rounds of 40mm ammo. 20 rounds of shotgun ammo can fit in a cargo pocket. Lastly, there is no better close in fighting weapon than a shotgun. For the same reasons its the perfect home defense weapon for the untrained.

I think it’s a bad idea, but I haven’t ruled it out completely. I have a few questions though. 1) what gauge? 2) slug, shot or fleshettes? 3) what barrel length (muzzle velocity)? 4) single shot or magazine feed? 5) how will the weapon handle with the extra weight at the close ranges intended for its use? 6) is this intended for police work or for combat?

1) what gauge? The military's shotguns are all 12-gauge. To avoid having to purchase new stockpiles of ammunition, 12 will do. Ten gauge may prove too heavy. 2) slug, shot or fleshettes? Slug to knock down people or punch doors. Buckshot or flechettes...For tanks, canister cleared brush more effectively in 'Nam then did Flechettes. For the anti-personnel, flechettes for medium and longer ranges, buck for short up close *bang*. 3) what barrel length (muzzle velocity)? Barrel length-whatever fits between the magazine feed port and the flash suppressor. 4) single shot or magazine feed? Magazine or slide-action...expecting to operate different types of rounds, the slide action may be necessary. 5) how will the weapon handle with the extra weight at the close ranges intended for its use? Most of the weight will tilt the weapons front downward...might be good for stairs going down (helicopter assault from top to bottom). On entry, the weapon may need a weight on the stock to rebalance or something. That particular issue would involve a redesign of the weapon to accomodate or something improvised, such as weights on the stock or something. 6) is this intended for police work or for combat? Could do for either...does it matter?

I think so. IMHO the shotgun is better suited for police work (but is best for hunting). Intended tasks mentioned for the shotgun are: 1) Door breaching. I think the shotgun is an excellent choice for police who are going in after a barricaded suspect. Combat, how many doors are left after a “fire for effect” is called in? Soldiers already have breaching tools like tanks, armoured bull dozers, AT-4s etc. I think the shotgun rates just above the handgun on this list. 2) “knock down people” What does this mean? Are you talking about rubber bullets? Sounds like police work to me. 3) Anti personal I can’t see the worth in having that extra weight hanging off the end of my rifle for the few times when the shotgun has a slight edge over the rifle.

Door-breach with a tank might violate ROE if the area has lots of civvies crawling around. As for knocking down people, I was thinking of non-lethal rubber slugs, or the lethal knock-down for a very long time. As for the stopping power bonus being very little, many people on the net are talking about 5.56's purported lack of killing power. A underslung shotgun solves this for one person. There might be other applications I can't think of.

Quote by WinsettZ “As for the stopping power bonus being very little, many people on the net are talking about 5.56's purported lack of killing power. A underslung shotgun solves this for one person.” I still think “I can’t see the worth in having that extra weight hanging off the end of my rifle for the few times when the shotgun has a slight edge over the rifle.” Personally, I’d have mom send me a couple boxes of soft points, load a few mags filled with every second round being a soft point and keep the mags handy on my person for room clearing. Problem #1 the Geneva Convention, the solution, don’t get caught. Problem #2 failure to feed the soft points, the solution, throat the feed ramp. I have successfully done this myself with some emery cloth and a Dremel tool on a M1 carbine for the very same reason.

Here are my answers to the questions: Gauge ... 20, not 12. 75% of the knock down power for alot less recoil. This thing is slung under the rifle barrel. slug, shot or fleshettes ... double aught buckshot mostly. And a few of those rounds used to bust locks, the ones the police use. barrel length ... gotta fit under the M16 barrel, just like a 40mm does on a M203. single shot or magazine feed ... pump action. extra weight ... No different than what a Grenadier has to deal with today. And it will solve the problem of having the wrong weapon (shotgun or rifle) at the wrong time. intended for ... combat infantryman.

Shaka “Gauge ... 20, not 12. 75% of the knock down power for alot less recoil. This thing is slung under the rifle barrel.” M4 75% - please show me how you arrived at this figure? I don’t have a 20 but I have a 410, I use it for grouse and rabbit. My 12 with buck is for cougars and slugs for bears. Shaka “slug, shot or fleshettes ... double aught buckshot mostly. And a few of those rounds used to bust locks, the ones the police use.” M4 no comment Shaka “barrel length ... gotta fit under the M16 barrel, just like a 40mm does on a M203.” M4 short barrel = low muzzle velocity = low KE your short 20 will make a nice rodent killer. Shaka “single shot or magazine feed ... pump action.” M4 Even more dead weight hanging off the end of my rifle. You could make it heaver if you went with auto, you know. Shaka “extra weight ... No different than what a Grenadier has to deal with today.” M4 Putting a grenade through a doorway at 100m is different from going through that same doorway to clear a room, weight does matter. Shaka “And it will solve the problem of having the wrong weapon (shotgun or rifle) at the wrong time.” M4 Or cause confusion over which trigger to pull.

A few points about the under-slug shotgun. First, An M-4 is quite handy for CQB applications in itself, why waste time duct-taping another good CQB weapon, the shotgun, under it. Dedicate one person with a shotgun for door breaching, and let him carry various 12 ga. loads. I would recommend a slug in the chamber followed by buckshot. The soft-point rounds and Geneva Convention arguments are moot since I believe that shotguns are also banned by the Geneva Convention. I'll have to check on that one to be certain, though. Knock-down power isn't just for rubber rounds. There's nothing like a giant hunk of lead to create dysfunction in an enemy. If you want less lethal, there are bean-bag rounds in both 12 gauge and 37mm. Just be certain to back up the less-lethal shooters with the real deal. Why are shotguns good for law enforcement? Well, liability. High-powered rifle rounds have a tendency to go through things, and the things behind them. Buckshot loses its velocity faster due to among other things, it's not spinning, and subsequently does not penetrate the way bullets do. Slugs also fade quickly and its harder to drill out a 3/4 inch hole through things. Very few walls in residential buildings will stop the 9mm FMJ. Lets at least confine our shots in one house. Many LE departments started using CAR-15's in 9mm because there is hesitation to use a normal rifle round that could potentially cause collateral damage (and thus find a lawsuit against the city, the department, and yourself). More agencies are going to carrying M-4's in the squad car, and use ballistic-tipped ammo. Yes, LE agencies can use the goodies that are too terrible to use on enemy combatants. Big differences between LE and Military. While CQB principles/tactics are universal, military personnel may have the luxury of chucking a grenade in the room before entry. LE types want to take everyone into custody without anyone getting killed or hurt (and the inevitable lawsuits). The only uses for a "grenade launcher" in LE are for CS, CN or OC canisters; or bean-bags and hard-rubber projectiles. In conclusion (finally), just have someone use it as his/her primary weapon. If things go to heck, it won't really matter if the bad guy is stopped with a door-breaching round, a slug or buckshot. A shotgun also has a certain psychological effect on people. Everyone recognizes the racking of a pumpgun action, and looking down a 12 gauge muzzle is a bit unnerving.