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Subject: Which is the best 9mm pistol?
Question    11/30/2003 9:32:27 AM
By best,i mean grip,accuracy,reloading function,safety,recoil,etc.Ive heard a lot about the SIG,nice and easy to use.Then theres the glock...17 i think....and the berretta.And probably a lot more.Which do you think is the best?
 
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fitz    RE:Which is the best 9mm pistol - ambush   1/16/2005 10:30:16 PM
The FBI switched to 10mm and gave that up even quicker. Now 10mm is virtually a dead caliber. 9mm is easy to shoot and allows for a large magazine capacity. For the average shooter these factors are probably more important than single-hit stopping power. For Special-Ops types who are expected to hit what they are aiming at, larger, more powerful rounds and the expense of magazine capacity and ease of shooting make sense.
 
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ambush    RE:Which is the best 9mm pistol - ambush   1/19/2005 10:37:34 PM
>>9mm is easy to shoot and allows for a large magazine capacity. For the average shooter these factors are probably more important than single-hit stopping power. For Special-Ops types who are expected to hit what they are aiming at, larger, more powerful rounds and the expense of magazine capacity and ease of shooting make sense.<< Makes sense if you believe in equipping troops or yourself down to accomodate the lowest skill/training level. I on the other hand believe in training up to take advatage of the best weapons or systems available. For many, many, many years the US military equipped an trained its personel to use large caliber pistols be an old single actionhorse pistol or the great 1911. What you are saying to the troops is that we are issuing you an weapon with less stopping power and (when compared to the 1911)less reliability because we do not wnat to make the investment in training them too use a better weapon. This goes for the individual also. You may choose to use the 9mm because you do not want to invest the time on the range.
 
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Gene6696    RE:Which is the best 9mm pistol?   1/22/2005 7:54:14 PM
I see we are slipping into the 9mm vs. .45 debate....Just remember, a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45...The bullet diameter does not have as much to do with the ability of the pistol, as much as the ability of the shooter. Back to the best 9mm pistol. It's a matter of what the pistol will be used for, how it will be used, and who will be using it. For ease of training, durability (as long as u don't leave it on a car dashboard in the sun), and reliability, I would have to vote for tactical tupperware, the Glock 17. It has proven itself in many environments and applications. It is simple to operate, maintain and repair. Sure, it's ugly. It's not as sexy as, say, a Sig P226, or a nice, custom Browning Hi-Power, but, when you pull the trigger, it goes POP!, consistently. Hell, you can even use it in a maritime, submerged environment by changing the firing pin cups. Yep, I would have to go with the G17. I would change the color to completely NATO green, though.
 
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CZ    RE:Which is the best 9mm pistol?   11/2/2005 10:10:34 AM
Best of the best weapons from europe....full STOP #1 CZ,#2 Baby Eagle,#3 Glock,#4 HK,#5 Walter PPK,....... Thank you
 
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ssfeldjager    Are you kidding?   12/4/2005 9:54:24 AM
there is no such thing as the "best" 9mm pistol. The 9mm cartridge sucks; it's nothing more than a fast .38 Special. Zero plus zero still equals zero.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Are you kidding?   12/5/2005 7:01:00 PM
>>there is no such thing as the "best" 9mm pistol. The 9mm cartridge sucks; it's nothing more than a fast .38 Special. Zero plus zero still equals zero. << 9x19mm has been killing people quite handily for a century now. It might not thump quite as hard a .45 ACP, but all pistols suck when it comes to actually killing people. Good shot placement and technique means targets go down -- 9x19mm, .40S&W, .45 ACP, or .22 Long Rifle, it doesn't much matter -- bad shot placement and, well, .45 ACP ain't no better at stopping a target than 9x19mm is you miss. Personally, I own both 9mm and 45 ACP pistols, like all the various makes and models I have, but for concealed carry I almost always use one of my 9s -- usually with ball ammunition on top of that. I'm confident in my shooting ability, and controlled pairs center of mass delivers the mail just as well with 9mm as it does the heavier rounds.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Are you kidding?   12/5/2005 8:07:13 PM
It's somewhat amusing that so many (majority Americans?) people believe the .45 round hits harder than 9mm - when the 9mm round hits home with far more energy to deposit into the target. The 9mm round travels a lot faster than .45, leading to a flatter trajectory, and it hits with more energy, while it retains its energy for longer. You can also fit more in a magazine than .45, and it has less recoil and ergo is more controllable than .45. The only issue with 9mm, is overpenetration. it can pass straight through the target without depositing all its energy. The advantage of the .45 round, is that it is fat and heavy - it underpenetrates. In a military environment where your enemy may be wearing a flak jacket or thick winter clothing, 9mm is far superior.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Are you kidding?   12/6/2005 8:49:45 AM
>>It's somewhat amusing that so many (majority Americans?) people believe the .45 round hits harder than 9mm - when the 9mm round hits home with far more energy to deposit into the target.<< The fact that statistics concerning actual shootings, rather than gelatin shots or chronographed bullet velocities/muzzle energies, supports the idea that .45 ACP hits harder and stops targets more reliably than 9mm is probably a big part of the reason for such. Kinetic energy is not a very good model of hitting power according to many authorities on ballistics and wound effects, who suggest momentum (mass times velocity) as a better indicator of actual hitting power with a round. Some also prefer the Taylor Knockdown formula, which adds in consideration of bullet diameter as well, though this can get complicated when considering tumbling or expanding bullets in the model. This model is much better at explaining, for instance, how a heavy but relatively low powered round like the ancient 45-70 can be far superior to 5.56x45mm for bringing down big game -- even though muzzle energy is similar, 45-70 is throwing a much heavier bullet that is over twice as wide as 5.56mm. The problem is that while 45 ACP *is* superior at stopping targets than 9x19mm, it is not an order of magnitude better, and, like I noted previously, it all boils down to shot placement when all is said and done. >>The 9mm round travels a lot faster than .45, leading to a flatter trajectory, and it hits with more energy, while it retains its energy for longer. You can also fit more in a magazine than .45, and it has less recoil and ergo is more controllable than .45.<< Trajectory does not really count for much at the range anyone has any business using a pistol at, and 9mm is not especially superior to 45 in terms of trajectory anyway -- both are basically lobbing rainbows. It does not retain energy better than 45 ACP, however -- lighter bullet means less retained energy downrange. I completely agree on the last two issues -- more rounds per magazine and less recoil are very important in a combat handgun, though sufficient training can address the second part to a good degree. Most of the competitive combat handgun champions (IPSC, IDPA, etc) use 45 ACP, for instance. >>The only issue with 9mm, is overpenetration. it can pass straight through the target without depositing all its energy. The advantage of the .45 round, is that it is fat and heavy - it underpenetrates.<< 45 ACP does not "under penetrate" -- it easily obtains penetration depth sufficient to kill according to all models I'm aware of concering the topic. As for 9mm overpenetrating -- energy transfer has been pretty much discredited by current research on handgun lethality. As long as you can get about 12" of penetration, then the most important issue is side of the permanent wound channel generated. By this criteria, 45 ACP is superior though, as noted above, not so dramatically superior as to render smaller caliber rounds worthless. >>In a military environment where your enemy may be wearing a flak jacket or thick winter clothing, 9mm is far superior.<< Not particularly. Neither round will penetrate even modest modern body armor, and both work well enough against guys in winter clothing. In a military environment, one should not be using a pistol anyway, except as an emergency weapon (say if your rifle has a stoppage during a CQB engagement) or in very confined environments. 5.56x45mm outperforms both rounds resoundingly.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Are you kidding?   12/8/2005 12:13:09 PM
"The fact that statistics concerning actual shootings, rather than gelatin shots or chronographed bullet velocities/muzzle energies, supports the idea that .45 ACP hits harder and stops targets more reliably than 9mm is probably a big part of the reason for such." I think I will stick to science, rather than what some people have stated, who are likely biased towards what they grew up with anyhow. Not that such experiences shouldnt be listened to, but the .45 round isn't -that- heavy. It doesn't have the impact of .45/70. "45 ACP does not "under penetrate"" Yes it does. British tests in WWII showed that 9mm fired from a sten gun would penetrate through several layers of winter clothing and scrim netting at 200m's, while the .45 round had serious issues doing such in Korea. "Not particularly. Neither round will penetrate even modest modern body armor" 9mm will penetrate flak jackets afaik. I have no idea if .45 will.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Are you kidding?   12/8/2005 1:45:29 PM
>>I think I will stick to science, rather than what some people have stated, who are likely biased towards what they grew up with anyhow. Not that such experiences shouldnt be listened to, but the .45 round isn't -that- heavy. It doesn't have the impact of .45/70.<< "Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little . . . Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet." From "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" from the FBI's Firearms Training Unit (see http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm), page 19 of the PDF version. As for the impact of .45 ACP versus 45-70, not, it does not have the same impact, but it is about twice as heavy and 127% the width of 9mm, giving it a decided edge. >>Yes it does. British tests in WWII showed that 9mm fired from a sten gun would penetrate through several layers of winter clothing and scrim netting at 200m's, while the .45 round had serious issues doing such in Korea.<< I've never heard any accounts of 45 ACP failing to incapacitate targets in Korea. The failure of .30 carbine ammunition is well known, but do you have any sources citing a similar problem with 45 ACP? >>9mm will penetrate flak jackets afaik. I have no idea if .45 will.<< Not a vest manufactured to US National Institute of Justice standards -- Level II and IIA vests will stop most 9mm projectiles, level III/IIIA/IV will stop a 9mm bullet fired by any handgun or SMG in existence. (45 ACP will not penetrate them either.) US Interceptor Body Armor, just as an example, exceeds the NIJ IIIA standards by several hundred feet per second in its 9mm rating, even before adding the rigid SAPI plates.
 
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