Are France and U.S. really on the same side?

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Subject: Are France and U.S. really on the same side?
VelocityVector 8/6/2008 1:16:53 AM

Since the Vietnam War, I do not believe the U.S. could have had such coherent top-down military and political involvement as alleged below. A French poster recently claimed that France and the U.S. "belong on the same side." Having just returned from France and seeing more hijab on display in Paris than in some moderate Islamic countries, I question this. Perhaps this was due to presence of Tour de France finish at the Arch then. Consider: France accused in Rwanda genocide Rwanda has accused France of playing an active role in the genocide of 1994, in which about 800,000 people were killed. An independent Rwandan commission said France was aware of preparations for the genocide and helped train the ethnic Hutu militia perpetrators. The report also accused French troops of direct involvement in the killings. It named 33 senior French military and political figures that it said should be prosecuted. France has previously denied any such responsibility. Among those named in the report were the late former President, Francois Mitterrand, and the then Prime Minister Edouard Balladur. Two men who went on to become prime minster were also named - Alain Juppe, the foreign minister at the time, and his then chief aide, Dominique de Villepin. . . . "French forces committed several rapes on Tutsi survivors," said a statement from the justice ministry cited by AFP news agency. "Considering the seriousness of the alleged crimes, the Rwandan government has urged the relevant authorities to bring the accused French politicians and military officials to justice," the statement said. . . . The BBC's Geoffrey Mutagoma in the Rwandan capital, Kigali, says the commission spent nearly two years investigating France's alleged role in the genocide. It heard testimonies from genocide survivors, researchers, writers and reporters. The 500-page document was presented to the Rwanda's government last November, but was not made public until now. Story from BBC NEWS: h**p://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/africa/7542418.stm Published: 2008/08/05 17:25:16 GMT © BBC MMVIII v^2

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FJV Yes 8/6/2008 12:30:19 PM

Unfortunately, the French are being their usual selves.

As for Rwanda, that is a bad example. Bill Clinton really messed up that one.

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RockyMTNClimber of choosing sides.... 8/6/2008 2:25:20 PM

France and the USA have a ~~marraige~~ relationship of convenience. When it is convenient there is a positive relationship. When it isn't we obviously don't.

Such is the tribal nature of our world.

Check Six

Rocky

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buzzard 8/6/2008 2:31:53 PM

Unfortunately, the French are being their usual selves.

As for Rwanda, that is a bad example. Bill Clinton really messed up that one.

While I'm no fan of Bubba, I don't quite know what you mean by this. Are you saying we should have sent in troops? That wasn't going to happen after Bubba let us get chased out of Somalia. Rawanda was pretty horrible, no doubt, but who really wanted to pay the cost to straighten that one out? Also, who wanted to take the black eye from the usual suspects on the left for oppressing the colonial peoples? Short of the OAS doing something to stop it (yeah, I know about as likely as winged monkeys flying out of my butt), nobody was going to fix it.

buzzard

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jastayme3 8/6/2008 6:44:07 PM

France is a neutral and America is a belligerant. The two always grate on each other.

And their mutual accusations remain constant. Neutrals call belligerants warmongers and belligerants call neutrals

cowards, collaboraters, and profiteers.

So nothing is really changed.

What does annoy me is how people take the vagaries of politics to seriously. We are not backwoods clans that think

rivalry must equal hatred. And we should not act as such. Our interests simply diverge.

Which does not mean that I do not enjoy making fun of the French, because in fact I do. However hatred is immature.

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FJV 8/7/2008 1:27:05 PM

Just because some stuff doesn't often get reported, doesn't mean it is not important. From what I've read the French and the US intell organisations are cooperating quite well together. From what I've read I would worry more about the bad blood between Spain and the US .

"http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/02/AR2005070201361_pf.html"

As for Rwanda I've read several statements from right wing authors that this was a preventable and that the US was among those who messed up. These right wing guys were not the type that usually make such statements (they are not hysterically anti Clinton). For the record the US was not the only one who messed up, in case any America bashers are reading this. There is and official report on this which I will have to fully read. Sources:

"http://www.cfr.org/publication/15629/rwanda.html?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2F191%2Frwanda"

The Organization of African Unity initiated this study on the Rwandan genocide. It appointed an independent international panel to investigate the 1994 atrocities; the report was issued on July 7, 2000. The panel found the United Nations Security Council, France and Belgium, and the United States among the main parties responsible for failing to prevent genocide.

For the report:

"http://www.africa-union.org/Official_documents/reports/Report_rowanda_genocide.pdf "

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dirtykraut 8/9/2008 1:49:49 AM

The US and France have a lot of shared history. The two countries were great allies until about 40 years ago. The problem is that both the French and the Americans listen to their media's constant stereotype (of eachother). People are gullible. If the media in the US tells Americans that the French are rude, arrogant, and spineless, they'll believe almost every word of it. Likewise if the French media tells French people that Americans are ignorant, imperialistic, and cultureless, they'll believe it. A partnership that lasts over 200 years is hard to come by. Choosing to end it over stereotypes and petty politics would be the utmost stupidity.

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jastayme3 9/14/2008 12:58:27 AM

Actually each was an ally of itself and that very seldom meant an ally of one another.

They lived in their world and we lived in ours.

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DropBear 9/14/2008 5:09:07 AM

A French poster recently claimed that France and the U.S. "belong on the same side." Having just returned from France and seeing more hijab on display in Paris than in some moderate Islamic countries, I question this. Perhaps this was due to presence of Tour de France finish at the Arch then.

Huh? What does a cultural/religious headscarf have to do with whether a country is onside with Uncle Sam???

Walk the streets of western suburbs Sydney and you would see the same sights. Maybe Australia and the USA are not on the same side either.

Curious.

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Nichevo 9/14/2008 9:28:03 PM

People and probably nations grow apart. The French don't want to help us run the world anymore and we don't want to help France loot resource extraction states anymore. We prefer to buy what we need on the free market and France prefers special deals to a free market. Other than the fact that mercantilism is dead, why shouldn't they? It worked for Louis XIV.

And, of course, we can't find an enemy big enough to make it a fair fight, and France can't find one small enough. Though Cote d'Ivoire has to be close.

Besides, the only place we could actually contribute to the actual security of the actual French nation would be to invade the cités for them, and I don't think we stock napalm anymore. They can do internal intel work OK by themselves (we have nothing to teach them about creative uses of electricity, scopolamine, pliers, etc.), but if sharing the ECHELON take makes them happy I guess it's OK.

France is, I am sure, doing the best they can in Afghanistan, which makes me much sadder than thinking they are just loafing. And probably some fraction of their nut-crushing sessions offers us something of value. Oh and, no doubt, in the new Special (Forces) Olympics, they probably have two or three dozen guys who can shoot and move. If any are free from wog-bashing duties, they are no doubt welcome to chip in wherever SOCOM would like to send them, but I doubt things work that way.

So I can see trading intel and kind words where appropriate. But France will probably never have a war again - at least they'll never fight a war again. So what good is our army to them or their army to us? I wish 'em the very best of luck and hope they can reach a comfortable accommodation with their next conquerors.

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