Are Britain's armed forces underestimated?

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Subject: Are Britain's armed forces underestimated?
JTR~~ 8/20/2010 10:04:08 AM

i tend to think so, i feel that there is a lack of regard amongst many people about the potency of and capability of the British armed forces, not meaning to stereotype but it is often very patriotic Americans who show this lack of regard most clearly by all means though they seem not to be the only ones, i do suppose that this particular point can be put down to age old Anglo-American rivalry But what does anyone else think, is there a lack of regard, and if so should people take the British armed forces more seriously and why?

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lunar 8/20/2010 12:25:13 PM

As for me, i am Indian. I believe their is more mystic or appreciation for the traditions of the British forces. As vieved by some in India. But, i am not sure if the overall British forces are as capable and as highly regarded as in days past. They do deserve respect but i don not believe they are the best or as potent as other countries.

i do not mean any disrespect

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VelocityVector 8/20/2010 3:03:30 PM

The Brits and Commonwealth have a grand history of producing superb military leaders and forces as well as leading edge engineering innovations in support. Today however witnesses these assets as mere shadows of their former selves, in part due to budgetary shifts, the willingness of Uncle Sam to fill gaps, and respective publics which no longer perceive any need for powerful single-state military capabilities.

From my perch in the US I watch with interest as British political leadership seriously discusses whether to maintain a nuclear retaliatory capactity, Royal Marines are taken captive without resisting and prudent overwatch, British forces acquiesce to thugs in their area of responsibility within Iraq, and a prince is allowed to land the Chinook he pilots in a garden patch to impress his sweetheart. As a person who visits the UK I also have noted in recent years a growing schadenfreude by many Brits when the US stumbles on the world stage.

Sum total is that, no, British forces are not "misunderestimated" here in the US. I suspect that British forces will be taken more seriously if in the future they rise to the very high standard of capability set by their forebearers and the British public adequately supports this. 0.02

v^2

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Panther 8/20/2010 5:50:05 PM

v^2

To add to Velocity Vector's post. It also might probably have more to do with most US internet users constantly coming across and reading British civilian contempt they have held for US forces, so it is more then likely that those of us here in the US respond in kind. Though i personally feel that British forces would be treated more warmly over here then they are in their own home country, in which British forces are treated with the same level of contempt as their cousins are. Might that be a correct assumption?

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VelocityVector 8/20/2010 6:30:34 PM

i personally feel that British forces would be treated more warmly over here then they are in their own home country

Concur based upon firsthand observation. In terms of the US majority population this excerpt is, I earnestly believe, almost uniformly representative. We here in the US haven't forgotten, yet, what Britain and the Commonwealth, hello even Canada, have given the world on so many levels. You wear your uniform here and I bet you seldom buy your own drinks or meal. This appreciation likely will not sustain though. The schadenfreude, and negations, I referred to in my previous post have not exactly gone unnoticed by many of US. 0.02

v^2

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Panther 8/20/2010 6:57:38 PM

The schadenfreude, and negations, I referred to in my previous post have not exactly gone unnoticed by many of US.

Indeed, it is like somebody or someone is trying to divide the Anglo-sphere? Always shook my head in disgust when intellectuals always dismissed the special relationship as being dead; And then i would slap my forehead in disbelief when civilians would start echoing them, regardless of how intertwined both countries polices are and the level of respect both countries have for the other in shaping the own foreign policies. But..... ***sigh*** They have been saying for such a long time, they are bound too make their dream a reality, come hell or high water!

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Reactive 8/20/2010 7:49:55 PM

Unfortunately public sentiment in the UK does seem to have swung to the isolationist viewpoint, and yes, on average, it's fair to say that a large percentage of the public, through ignorance or malice or merely the comfort accorded by first world living seem to be anti military, anti intervention, and anti US.

In terms of capabilities, I'd say if anything it's more overestimated than underestimated. If you actually look at the RN for example the only "top of the line" vessel which enjoys technical parity or better with other contemporary western designs is the Astute class SSN, the Type 45 is not operational yet and even then is an advanced but ultimately defensive platform.

The problem being that a lot of the units of the MOD simply aren't able to deal with the tasks they were designed for due to budgetary constraints. The UK absolutely could not launch another Falklands style campaign were a similar scenario to occur tomorrow, any illusions of grandeur have long since been dashed by bureaucrats and public apathy.

Quality counts for a lot but then so do numbers, logistics capability and finances, the reality facing the UK is that it simply can't afford (with the amount of public indiffrence that exists) to maintain a comprehensive force that covers all the bases, short sighted thinking is dictating that the forces will be structured for COIN and peacekeeping operations, and yes, like V2, I find myself continually amazed and disgusted by the anti-us sentiment that has built up.

It's part of being in modern europe, unfortunately, we believe we are living in a secure and comfortable era, we also think that under no circumstances is it morally justifiable to overthrow tyranny, a view I can't fathom and can only conclude is a result of a generation that has absolutely no context in which to appreciate just what it really has in security terms relative to previous generations who saw the first and second world wars.

So some plausible post SDR realities for anyone thinking the UK is underestimated militarily,

Far fewer than 200 combat aircraft

Retiring several existing frigates.

6 SSN Submarines

No imminent update to the type 23

Retiring the only strike platform we have (Tornado)

Getting rid of 40+ percent of our world-beating MBT's

Getting rid of a few divisions of the Army

Possibly scrapping JSF purchase

One QE class CVF (terrible idea)

Retiring of Hercules transports and replacement with far fewer A400m's

Whether it really is going to be this bad or not, the only people who seem to actually care about this happening are those who are naive enough to believe that conflict can never emerge on a major international scale again. If we cut the MOD budget as planned we have very little right to sit on the UN security council, we'd have absolutely no capability to go it alone if necessary, and would to an increasing degree lose influence in coalitions.

My thinking is that really it suits a lot of people if this is in fact the case, Trident keeps us safe enough and that's pretty much what national defense will rest on.

As to how this relates to our global standing, I suspect it's basically more or less the last period in British power, the era where we decide to become a nice cozy european state with little or nothing to say about what happens in the rest of the world.

And regarding anti-US sentiment here - it is negative, no question about it, few people seem to have enough interest in recent history to understand how ungrateful that is.

The one thing I can hope for is that British inventiveness will pioneer new unmanned technologies, ones that can replace the same capability for far less cost, I look forward to seeing whether Taranis will also be scrapped but rumours on the grapevine are hinting that this is where future investment is likely to be headed.

This is going to be a very bleak autumn for the armed forces, make no mistake about it. Training and discipline are what the British forces are renowned for - but that does not mean much investment and systems are cut beyond the lowest threshold needed for a medium to high intensity conflict.

Sad times.

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Reactive Typos aplenty 8/20/2010 7:55:03 PM

those who are naive enough

Should read "aren't"

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USN-MID 8/20/2010 8:44:37 PM

Reactive's post is spot on. Few question the training and motivation of the British armed forces, however, the status of their equipment is seriously beginning to degrade.

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Panther 8/20/2010 10:21:00 PM

Reactive's post is spot on. Few question the training and motivation of the British armed forces, however, the status of their equipment is seriously beginning to degrade.

Quite so. According to one UK site i read regularly, keeping the British forces fully equipped has been a disaster to some and a running battle among the opinions of others. Still that is not meant to be taken as disparaging the fine members of Her Majesty's forces.Anyways, here is a collection of links to read

h**p://britisharmy.wordpress.com/

h**p://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/jackspeak/

h**p://www.raf.mod.uk/news/rafblogsfromafghanistan.cfm

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orion1 orion 8/20/2010 10:51:18 PM

v^2

I do not believe its reading civilian contempt as it is first hand accounts from those that were over there (like U.S. and other non-british serviceman and civilians. I do believe that britihs forces are'nt as capable as they once were.

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