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Subject:
Swiss neutrality and What Ifs
TrustButVerify
8/1/2008 2:14:01 PM
A few people in the U.S. believe that pursuing a strategy of near-total neutrality is feasible, even in our age of 4GW, and point to Switzerland as an example. I happen to disagree, and suggest that Swiss neutrality was only possible in WWII (and the Cold War) because other parties were doing the fighting. I'd like to discuss this concept and look particularly at scenarios where the Swiss would face a serious offensive by the Third Reich or the Warsaw Pact.
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buzzard
8/7/2008 2:53:20 PM
I rather doubt anyone who advocates a Swiss Neutrality like position for the U.S. understands in any way what that entails. First off you would have mandatory conscription and militia service for all 18 year old males. Deferment till after college is possible, but service still is mandatory at some point. Then you need to issue full auto weapons to EVERY MILITIA MEMBER to be kept in their homes. This idea would make plenty of people here blow a major gasket. The U.S. probably wouldn't have to fortify the country like the Swiss due owing to the oceans we have for protection, but still, it's just not realistic.
As for scenarios in which the Swiss get clobbered, yes it could happen, but probably wouldn't be worth the cost. The Nazis would not have bothered as the Swiss were good suppliers of various things they needed, and you don't kill the goose who's willing to trade you golden eggs at a good price. The Soviets might have considered such a thing based on principle (what other excuse can be found for Afghanistan- there was certainly no potential profit there), but it would have been very costly again.
Switzerland is set up like a fortress. A serious enough big country could take it, but good god, it would not be cheap.
buzzard
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CJH
8/10/2008 9:28:27 PM
How about Norway? Up to the time that it was invaded, other parties had been doing the fighting.
But probably the most significant reason was that Switzerland could not be accessed directly by allied military forces and therefore was circumstantially, as opposed to formally, allied to Germany. IIRC for example, Switzerland allowed German troop trains to use its railways while going to and from Italy.
Germany was getting all it needed from Switzerland without having to expose its troops to the hazards of facing an armed and determined population by invading.
Sweden was neutral throughout the war. Sweden provided the Germans with iron ore. No one invaded Sweden although I have heard that the Germans did seem to make some threatening moves to which the Swedes promptly reacted.
Spain was neutral throughout the war. Spanish territory must have been potentially valuable to both the Axis and the Allies. Yet, the belligerents never contended for control of Spanish territory.
So Norway (and Denmark and the Netherlands) was part of the fighting involuntarily.
Sweden, Spain and Switzerland were neutral. All three in one way or another overtly helped Germany while not overtly helping the Allies. All three could have been invaded and occupied but weren't because there was no sufficient cause to do so.
I would say that a premise based on Switzerland's having been totally neutral is a false one. Neither Warsaw Pact nor Nazi Germany needed to set foot in Switzerland in order to control it or the rest of Europe. They need only surround it.
The most plausible invasion scenario would have been if the Allies had driven the Germans out of Italy and over the Alps. Germany would have sent its divisions in then.
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CJH
8/17/2008 12:57:52 PM
By the way, if the Allies had pushed the Germans back to the Swiss border, would the Swiss have joined with the Germans and foought against the Allies?
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Yimmy
8/18/2008 4:25:25 PM
Spain had only just witnessed the end of the Spanish Civil War in 1939, where the Fascist Franco won out with the help of German and Italian assistance. The Liberal Democracies of Europe allowing the Fascists to arm Franco was described (I forget by who) as the worst case of appeasement of the 20th Century.
Franco was very much on the side of Hitler and Mussolini, however through Hitler launching the war somewhat early, Spain was in no condition to participate. Rather ironically, through sitting on the bench so to speak, Franco was the only Fascist in Europe who survived the war.
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Yimmy
8/18/2008 4:26:11 PM
There is a good little book called "A concise history of the Spanish Civil War", if anyone is interested.
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Thomas
8/26/2008 7:39:37 PM
Well: Neutrality demands special conditions. One of them being insignificance. Another difficulty in invading: Invading Switzerland is a uphill battle - litteraly.
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Yimmy
8/28/2008 9:48:47 PM
Another difficulty in invading: Invading Switzerland is a uphill battle - litteraly.
What if you start in the middle?
On a more realistic note, I think on the army-technology.com site, there were some very interesting pictures of Swiss heavy artillery mounted in WWII style concrete bunkers in mountain dug-outs. Such static defences are often considered obsolete in concurrent manoeuvre warfare, but in a small country where the lay of the land channels ones forces, I imagine they are rather useful.
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CJH
8/31/2008 4:38:06 PM
Well: Neutrality demands special conditions. One of them being insignificance. Another difficulty in invading: Invading Switzerland is a uphill battle - litteraly.
The Allies probably learned all about uphill battles too at Casino. They really would have had their hands full at the Swiss border.
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brit cadet
2/23/2009 5:58:19 PM
the germans didnt need to invade switzerland and wouldn't have because thats where they stored all of their gold and other money just in case they needed to go into hiding this isn't including hitler
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CJH
2/28/2009 12:43:02 PM
I'll not forget my being on a tram headed for the Bahnhof Platz in Zurich when a man boarded while carrying something that looked to me like a BAR with a folding bipod.
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