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Subject: MFP's built in 30's for channel crossing to negate need to capture ports
Black Hornet    6/7/2010 4:33:30 PM
140 tons of cargo & could carry tanks. Mount 8 inch guns on em to fire back at RN when they land on British beaches. http://www2.arnes.si/~gbasia/html/km.htm 50 or more of these would create hell for RN. Now of course this is a what if & technical feasibility is the 1st question regarding this, would they fit on the larger MFP, could 50-100 of em be built in late 30s etc. So I'll leave it at that before the grenades fly & personal stuff arrives.
 
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Black Hornet       6/7/2010 4:34:41 PM
Sorry bout triple post, computer said error thrice.
 
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Black Hornet       6/7/2010 6:14:59 PM
These did carry 88 mm. but 8 inch another matter. they would be 1 way trip & be fixed into the sand as semi permanent shore guns. Invasion craft fitted with Torps another thing they could've worked on in the 30's.
 
Often in BoB scenarios it is posited that the RN would pummel invasion craft on the beaches, this thread is essentially a counter to that possibility/reality what ever ones take is on that.
 
Most agree once they get across with a certain amount of men & tanks, the game is up, but tanks need gas, hence MFP's with their cargo capacity. Air power still an issue for advancing Germans, but rather than complicate it with all that, ( Germans could land pars on airfields etc), & get sidetracked into the endless "then whats" I'd prefer & hope that technical feasibility of lager guns on MFP's be more the focus of the discussion. If it would work, THEN, all the "then whats" become of interest & relevant.
 
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Black Hornet       6/7/2010 6:15:59 PM
These did carry 88 mm. but 8 inch another matter. they would be 1 way trip & be fixed into the sand as semi permanent shore guns. Invasion craft fitted with Torps another thing they could've worked on in the 30's.
 
Often in BoB scenarios it is posited that the RN would pummel invasion craft on the beaches, this thread is essentially a counter to that possibility/reality what ever ones take is on that.
 
Most agree once they get across with a certain amount of men & tanks, the game is up, but tanks need gas, hence MFP's with their cargo capacity. Air power still an issue for advancing Germans, but rather than complicate it with all that, ( Germans could land paras on airfields etc), & get sidetracked into the endless "then whats" I'd prefer & hope that technical feasibility of lager guns on MFP's be more the focus of the discussion. If it would work, THEN, all the "then whats" become of interest & relevant.
 
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Factfinder    Clarification   8/1/2010 3:29:25 AM
What exactly do you mean when you refer to MFPs?
 
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Hamilcar       8/1/2010 2:48:02 PM

What exactly do you mean when you refer to MFPs?
He meant this.

H.
 
 
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Mikko       8/1/2010 5:00:35 PM
Black Hornet, thank you for introducing a piece of equipment previously totally unknown to me.
 
I can't take a meaningful stance on BoB itself. Only that if Germans had developed additional capabilities to land on Britain proper, then the Brits would've developed their countermeasures accordingly and also their politics might've been different during the 30's. As long as they felt safe behind broadsides of the RN they were able to neville around.
 
Can you demonstrate intent against Britain any more clearly than by massing a very advanced landing fleet (with a range quite ideal for aiming across the channel) to the military harbours of northern Germany? It's a giveaway.
 
M
 
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Factfinder    MFPs   8/2/2010 3:38:10 PM
Thanks for the information. If Black Hornet had said 'F Lighter' I would have known what he meant.
 
I love the idea about mounting an 8 inch gun on one! some of the later ones, the Type Ds, were rebuilt as gunboats, similar to the British LCGs, but they had a reputation for being top heavy and unstable, and their main armament was 2 x 88mm guns.
 
 In any case, the first MFP Type A, rather smaller than the Type D, only commissioned in April 1941, rather late for Sealion.
 
'50 or more of these would create hell for the RN'  Oh dear, isn't it fascinating that the 'Sealion was possible' lobby always seem to think that, in order to combat the 60 or so RN destroyers and cruisers based between Plymouth & Harwich, all you need to do is bolt a few 88mm or 105mm guns onto the deck of a barge or coaster, and then blow them out of the water!
 
I can only assume that this is some sort of wish-fulfilment fantasy, wholly divorced from reality.
 
What Black Hornet is really saying is that the Germans would have prevented the RN from slaughtering the barges convoys as they waddled across, by deploying a vessel which did not exist, armed with a gun which  could not possibly have been mounted on it. 
 
Waste of time!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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CJH       8/15/2010 11:32:36 AM

140 tons of cargo & could carry tanks. Mount 8 inch guns on em to fire back at RN when they land on British beaches. link

50 or more of these would create hell for RN. Now of course this is a what if & technical feasibility is the 1st question regarding this, would they fit on the larger MFP, could 50-100 of em be built in late 30s etc.

So I'll leave it at that before the grenades fly & personal stuff arrives.
Do you have your helmet on?
One question that occurs is how accurately and at what rate could these 8 inch guns maintain fire against naval targets?
 
I remember reading some references to E Boats which carried torpedoes. I wonder whether the invasion fleet would have included vessels  in significant numbers with that capability. One would expect a capability to make smoke when necessary also.
 


 
 
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CJH       8/15/2010 11:34:47 AM



What exactly do you mean when you refer to MFPs?

He meant this.




H.


 

Looks kinda like an LCM.
 
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CJH       8/15/2010 11:49:47 AM
I'll see if this flies.
 
It is probably true that Overlord pretty well represented the state-of-the-art of amphibious invasion operations.
 
Evidently, the allies learned from Dieppe about the importance of quickly building up supplies around the landing site and not depending on possessing a port to do so. The allies even laid a sort of oil pipeline across the channel.
 
The plan also included the application of air superiority to the paralysing of all defender movement behind the beaches which I guess contributes to the same thing.
 
This is pretty much a case of  Nathan Bedford Forrest's "get there firstest with the mostest".
 
 
My suggestion is to study Overlord first and to then build on that.
 
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