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Subject: Interview: An Iraqi police officer from fallujah speaks.
Panther    1/17/2007 3:59:12 PM
http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/002926.php INDC: Ok. One last, quick question: what do you think of Americans, and has that opinion changed over time? Mohammed: "I think we need the Americans. If they go out right now it's gonna be a disaster. And believe me, even if they get out of Fallujah, Washington itself will be a target." Interesting! Someone who hasn't lived a sheltered life, understands the stakes of this sum-zero game and the highly possible outcome if we were too continue being so d@mn short-sighted by kidding ourseleves that this won't follow us back over here again!
 
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Herc the Merc       1/17/2007 4:38:35 PM
Washington itself will be a target---Its impossible for folks from Islamic countries to even enter the US, + the Iraqi police & military is SHia sure they want us to hang around--last nite on TV they showed a Sunni family pack up and leave after death threats from SHias. The US military offered to sit in the Sunnis house to wait for the insurgents, the Sunnis declined packed and left their home in Baghdad for good. Just shows u how much faith the Sunnis in mixed ares like Baghad have in the coalition.
 
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xylene       1/17/2007 6:31:41 PM
The Sunnis only have themselves to blame. The were the backbone of the insurgency and just kept attacking the more numerous Shias. and kept attacking and kept attacking. Now the Shia want blood and they realize Al Qaeda duped them. They made the wrong choices. They attack and kill thousands of US soldiers and now they want us to stay and protect them?
 
Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and many others only have themsleves to blame also. Before the war and even after the occupation started, the US asked and pleaded for other countries to contribute troops to help stabilize the country. Now it looks like the country will fall apart and everyone is asking the USA to stay. They should have helped when we asked. They are the ones that would have to deal with anarchy on their borders if we ever left. The administration ought to use this as a stick to force coorperation of neighboring countries.
 
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Panther       1/17/2007 6:43:57 PM

Washington itself will be a target---Its impossible for folks from Islamic countries to even enter the US, + the Iraqi police & military is SHia sure they want us to hang around--last nite on TV they showed a Sunni family pack up and leave after death threats from SHias. The US military offered to sit in the Sunnis house to wait for the insurgents, the Sunnis declined packed and left their home in Baghdad for good. Just shows u how much faith the Sunnis in mixed ares like Baghad have in the coalition.



Sure, it's harder than hell for the folks who try to come here through legal channels. But, you yourself should be well aware that there are other ways into this country, which shouldn't need spelling out.  I don't think terrorists would be trying too come here legally, that should be a no-brainer! Also, it doesn't have to be Washington. It can be any important American industrial, political, military, economic city in this country or hemisphere. Hell, for that matter, as long as it has the potential for enough dead bodies within it's city limits that would draw the MSM too it, (just like a bunch of leeches to a bloody wound) in order too give them some more free publicity... the better it is for them! 
 
Besides, what's often left unsaid in news reports, with all of the idiotic talk of us pulling out of Iraq... is that alot of Iraqi's are getting out, just in case our talks turn into action and the $h!t that quite a few think has already hit the fan, haven't really  seen a d@mned thing yet... of a ton of $h!t encrusted fans, if we leave this job half done!
 
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Panther       1/17/2007 7:03:10 PM

The Sunnis only have themselves to blame. The were the backbone of the insurgency and just kept attacking the more numerous Shias. and kept attacking and kept attacking. Now the Shia want blood and they realize Al Qaeda duped them. They made the wrong choices. They attack and kill thousands of US soldiers and now they want us to stay and protect them?

 

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and many others only have themsleves to blame also. Before the war and even after the occupation started, the US asked and pleaded for other countries to contribute troops to help stabilize the country. Now it looks like the country will fall apart and everyone is asking the USA to stay. They should have helped when we asked. They are the ones that would have to deal with anarchy on their borders if we ever left. The administration ought to use this as a stick to force coorperation of neighboring countries.


Actually Xylene, as far as the majority of sunnis go, i think... were political fence sitter's up til' they started too be terrorized by the terrorists. Now, from the reports i'm reading, many of them are coming off the fence to do battle with the terrorists and are slowly coming to help the coalition in ridding them of the rat's in their midst.
The shi'ite's, i think that's a no-brainer, get rid of Sadr and his gang of cut-throats up north and Badr's down south in the British sector and watch as more than half of the MSM revenues from Iraq would dry up in a blink of an eye!
 
Anyways, the term's "common-sense" and the names of most middle eastern "political and religous leaders", are hardly ever mentioned in the same sentence together. Shouldn't really be that surprising, but too many... it often is.
 
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Herc the Merc    Panther--the job is already done   1/17/2007 7:32:41 PM
The Shias are in power thanks to us, the Sunnis in Shia mixed neighbourhoods are leaving despite our troops offerring to stay in their homes. There is no further reason for us to stay except to consolidate Shias which we do not want to do but if we leave the Sunnis and Shias will fight and things will be much worse (civil war full blown)- but then Shias will loose their powerful hold which we would like to do , but then the Ba'athist can comeback which we do not want to happen. So we do not know what to do. The situation is called a quagmire. Now u need to hire a game theorist to plot the best solution in a quagmire. The simplest answer is leave the quagmire to solve itself.
 
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Herc the Merc    Simple game theory example   1/17/2007 7:39:11 PM
You are in a major Los Angeles traffic jam with no rush to get anywhere and really no destination as such in sight. There are few roving gang members randomly killing motorists and robbing them. You have some choices--
1) Lock ur doors turn up the music and AC and go slowly as the traffic moves
2) Conerned a bout a few gunshots u jump out of the car and try to create ur own gang with other motorists--now u can't drive but have to kill the highway insurgents first.
3) Alternatively u call the police on the cell for more bakup but they already have copters flying all over in confusion getting shot at .
4) You take the nearest exit and hit a bar wait for the traffic to clear off and then go in peace.
Panther how would u resolve this quagmire??
 
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Panther       1/18/2007 11:38:21 AM

The Shias are in power thanks to us, the Sunnis in Shia mixed neighbourhoods are leaving despite our troops offerring to stay in their homes. There is no further reason for us to stay except to consolidate Shias which we do not want to do but if we leave the Sunnis and Shias will fight and things will be much worse (civil war full blown)- but then Shias will loose their powerful hold which we would like to do , but then the Ba'athist can comeback which we do not want to happen. So we do not know what to do. The situation is called a quagmire. Now u need to hire a game theorist to plot the best solution in a quagmire. The simplest answer is leave the quagmire to solve itself.



It's pretty clear in my mind now, that this was bound to eventually happen once Saddam was gone, whether through natural causes or how it all indeed actually went down, though no one in the American government has the psychic abilities like what monday-morning quarter backs claim too have; This country cannot afford, in times of war, pompous twits from both sides of the aisle claiming the most counter-productive title of "We told ya' so"!
Anyway, us being there isn't the main aggravating problem, when in fact... even most Iraqi's want us too stay there for the immediate future, not becuase of their love for us, which i've never believed anyhow, but becuase of the level of fire-power that we bring that both dominant groups do indeed  recognize what we civilians don't... One again, the amount of fire power we bring into the game does help keep Iraq from becoming worse than what it could be! Also we need too bare in mind, it's the centuries long ethnic hatred between Iraq's pre-dominant groups, namely the more radical of the sunni and shia's. You can remove the cork off the lid, by bringing our troops home now and watch Iraq become worse than the never ending Darfur crisis, which no sane Iraqi or American really want anyhow... and with the possibility of the now more vociferous critics of the Iraq effort demanding us to return (yeah right!). Or we can take the ton of negatively slanted news reports with a grain of salt and develope a back bone and stay this one time, til Iraq and the Iraqi's  are up on it's feet, and most especially in the field of military logistics, which i think we need too be focusing in on as soon as we can!
 
 Also, i would like too add... we need too realize that the amount of troop deaths in Iraq, year by year, is way under peace time statistics, atleast by half! ---- i.e. we have more troops who die in accidents during peace time activities on a yearly basis, prior to OIF, than what the so called insurgents have provided yearly so far; Which would drive most insurgents wild with shame in knowing how truly ineffective they are. (Though... i will never expect those on the far left too admit how inadequate everyones possible future tormentors are!) Proving once again, that we can at times, be our own worst enemy!
 
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Panther       1/18/2007 12:06:12 PM

You are in a major Los Angeles traffic jam with no rush to get anywhere and really no destination as such in sight. There are few roving gang members randomly killing motorists and robbing them. You have some choices--

1) Lock ur doors turn up the music and AC and go slowly as the traffic moves

2) Conerned a bout a few gunshots u jump out of the car and try to create ur own gang with other motorists--now u can't drive but have to kill the highway insurgents first.

3) Alternatively u call the police on the cell for more bakup but they already have copters flying all over in confusion getting shot at .

4) You take the nearest exit and hit a bar wait for the traffic to clear off and then go in peace.

Panther how would u resolve this quagmire??



Well herc,i believe  i know what your saying, but your looking at the current world situation in a very narrow frame of mind. We had the luxury of not being involved in the cesspool's of the world's hell-holes prior too the 20th century. We no longer have that luxury at all, especially after WW2 and the succeeding decades that followed, whether it's becuase of politics, technological advances or a change of American opinion's and our outlook on the world. Any conservative arguments and dream's of isolationism needs to be tempered with the fact that we are, whether we like it or not, the predominant power for the 1st quater of this century atleast, and that's not too mention the past century either! I'm sure your familiar with the term "Nature abhors a vaccum". I can say with all sincerity, we didn't exactly rush in too fill the space that the crumbled empires left behind them. Do you understand what i am trying to say?
 
Anyways, i don't think i can answer your question with any rationality or lack of sarcasm on my part, unless you put more thought behind your question.
 
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Plutarch       1/18/2007 1:02:49 PM




The Shias are in power thanks to us, the Sunnis in Shia mixed neighbourhoods are leaving despite our troops offerring to stay in their homes. There is no further reason for us to stay except to consolidate Shias which we do not want to do but if we leave the Sunnis and Shias will fight and things will be much worse (civil war full blown)- but then Shias will loose their powerful hold which we would like to do , but then the Ba'athist can comeback which we do not want to happen. So we do not know what to do. The situation is called a quagmire. Now u need to hire a game theorist to plot the best solution in a quagmire. The simplest answer is leave the quagmire to solve itself.





It's pretty clear in my mind now, that this was bound to eventually happen once Saddam was gone, whether through natural causes or how it all indeed actually went down, though no one in the American government has the psychic abilities like what monday-morning quarter backs claim too have; This country cannot afford, in times of war, pompous twits from both sides of the aisle claiming the most counter-productive title of "We told ya' so"!

Anyway, us being there isn't the main aggravating problem, when in fact... even most Iraqi's want us too stay there for the immediate future, not becuase of their love for us, which i've never believed anyhow, but becuase of the level of fire-power that we bring that both dominant groups do indeed  recognize what we civilians don't... One again, the amount of fire power we bring into the game does help keep Iraq from becoming worse than what it could be!
 
 

 
 

 Also, i would like too add... we need too realize that the amount of troop deaths in Iraq, year by year, is way under peace time statistics, atleast by half! ---- i.e. we have more troops who die in accidents during peace time activities on a yearly basis, prior to OIF, than what the so called insurgents have provided yearly so far; Which would drive most insurgents wild with shame in knowing how truly ineffective they are. (Though... i will never expect those on the far left too admit how inadequate everyones possible future tormentors are!) Proving once again, that we can at times, be our own worst enemy!


Anyway, us being there isn't the main aggravating problem, when in fact... even most Iraqi's want us too stay there for the immediate future, not becuase of their love for us, which i've never believed anyhow, but becuase of the level of fire-power that we bring that both dominant groups do indeed  recognize what we civilians don't.
 

They don't want us there, they want us out...large majorities of both the Shiites and the Sunnis, and many Kurds as well.

 

 

Also we need too bare in mind, it's the centuries long ethnic hatred between Iraq's pre-dominant groups, namely the more radical of the sunni and shia's. You can remove the cork off the lid, by bringing our troops home now and watch Iraq become worse than the never ending Darfur crisis, which no sane Iraqi or American really want anyhow... and with the possibility of the now more vociferous critics of the Iraq effort demanding us to return (yeah right!). Or we can take the ton of negatively slanted news reports with a grain of salt and develope a back bone and stay this one time, til Iraq and the Iraqi's  are up on it's feet, and most especially in the field of military logistics, which i think we need too be focusing in on as soon as we can!

 

We can't stop the violence, the Shiites are going ahead with their pogroms and the Sunnis will fight to the last man.  Maliki has stated he's ready for

 
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Plutarch       1/18/2007 1:08:54 PM




The Shias are in power thanks to us, the Sunnis in Shia mixed neighbourhoods are leaving despite our troops offerring to stay in their homes. There is no further reason for us to stay except to consolidate Shias which we do not want to do but if we leave the Sunnis and Shias will fight and things will be much worse (civil war full blown)- but then Shias will loose their powerful hold which we would like to do , but then the Ba'athist can comeback which we do not want to happen. So we do not know what to do. The situation is called a quagmire. Now u need to hire a game theorist to plot the best solution in a quagmire. The simplest answer is leave the quagmire to solve itself.





It's pretty clear in my mind now, that this was bound to eventually happen once Saddam was gone, whether through natural causes or how it all indeed actually went down, though no one in the American government has the psychic abilities like what monday-morning quarter backs claim too have; This country cannot afford, in times of war, pompous twits from both sides of the aisle claiming the most counter-productive title of "We told ya' so"!

Anyway, us being there isn't the main aggravating problem, when in fact... even most Iraqi's want us too stay there for the immediate future, not becuase of their love for us, which i've never believed anyhow, but becuase of the level of fire-power that we bring that both dominant groups do indeed  recognize what we civilians don't... One again, the amount of fire power we bring into the game does help keep Iraq from becoming worse than what it could be!
 
 

 
 

 Also, i would like too add... we need too realize that the amount of troop deaths in Iraq, year by year, is way under peace time statistics, atleast by half! ---- i.e. we have more troops who die in accidents during peace time activities on a yearly basis, prior to OIF, than what the so called insurgents have provided yearly so far; Which would drive most insurgents wild with shame in knowing how truly ineffective they are. (Though... i will never expect those on the far left too admit how inadequate everyones possible future tormentors are!) Proving once again, that we can at times, be our own worst enemy!


Anyway, us being there isn't the main aggravating problem, when in fact... even most Iraqi's want us too stay there for the immediate future, not becuase of their love for us, which i've never believed anyhow, but becuase of the level of fire-power that we bring that both dominant groups do indeed  recognize what we civilians don't.
 

They don't want us there, they want us out...large majorities of both the Shiites and the Sunnis, and many Kurds as well.

 

 

Also we need too bare in mind, it's the centuries long ethnic hatred between Iraq's pre-dominant groups, namely the more radical of the sunni and shia's. You can remove the cork off the lid, by bringing our troops home now and watch Iraq become worse than the never ending Darfur crisis, which no sane Iraqi or American really want anyhow... and with the possibility of the now more vociferous critics of the Iraq effort demanding us to return (yeah right!). Or we can take the ton of negatively slanted news reports with a grain of salt and develope a back bone and stay this one time, til Iraq and the Iraqi's  are up on it's feet, and most especially in the field of military logistics, which i think we need too be focusing in on as soon as we can!

 

We can't stop the violence, the Shiites are going ahead with their pogroms and the Sunnis will fight to the last man.  Maliki has stated he's ready for

 
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