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Subject: JDAM DAMASK
reefdiver    12/15/2007 2:06:44 PM
I've seen a number of posts worrying about the effect of GPS jamming on the US GPS guided weapons like JDAM, but little said about the new DAMASK seeker. The DAMASK seeker, which apparently started initial production in 2007 (slated thru 2011), provides the JDAM with an imaging matching terminal guidance capability. This image may be uploaded in advance of or during the mission. It starts course correction from as far away as 2000ft. Articles I've read suggest this seeker may replace laser seekers. Take a picture (visual or IR?), point at the target, release and run - no holding a laser on target until weapon detonation. As the JDAM already has inertial guidance that can take it near the target without GPS, the GPS system almost seems redundant at this point. GPS jamming is irrelevant. You even get a CEP that is improved over GPS. Not that it will replace GPS - will generally work with it - but DAMASK certainly is another incredible arrow in the quiver. I'm surprised there isn't more discussion of it.
 
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DarthAmerica       12/15/2007 3:31:44 PM
Most people don't discuss it because VERY little is known about how things actually work in practice or what systems are being fielded. So if Yahoo news or Defense Tech has a story about GPS Jammers casual surfers will read it and start making post about how some country is poised to wipe out the free world because JDAMs wont work ect. These boards are full of post like that. An example would be all the post on the FBR boards dealing with ECD being so manuverable or post on the Surface Forces Boards about super sonic sea skimming missiles. Take your pic on any subject and you will find similar. Anyway, thanks for posting this.
 
 
-DA 
 
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FJV       12/15/2007 4:06:02 PM
I thought this is not being discussed, because it interrupts the fantasies of those that think the US can be easily defeated by a single gimmick.

It's not that the US is undefeatable, but most people don't wanna hear about the hard work you need to do to be able to have a good chance against the US. The rather believe in the magic of that on single thing that will beat the US.

Like the Chinese posters that claim the US will have no capabilities once they disable GPS by shooting the GPS sattelites. Even after pointing out that the cruise missiles have internal navigations and terrain comparison and that there is stuff like laser gyroscopes, they will happily go on with their fantasies like you have said nothing. Not to mention the possibility of using ultra high flying planes to create a temporary GPS.





 
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reefdiver       12/15/2007 4:21:07 PM


Like the Chinese posters that claim the US will have no capabilities once they disable GPS by shooting the GPS sattelites. Even after pointing out that the cruise missiles have internal navigations and terrain comparison and that there is stuff like laser gyroscopes, they will happily go on with their fantasies like you have said nothing. Not to mention the possibility of using ultra high flying planes to create a temporary GPS.


   I've always wondered if the US doesn't even have some small, short term GPS satellites tucked away ready for launch and insertion on Pegasus rockets on the spur of the moment.  I would even look to see future satellites have some sort of defensive maneuvering jamming devices themselves that could be activated to avoid ASAT's.
 
Nonetheless, the DAMASK gives me additional comfort that the US is as usual not putting all their bombing eggs in one GPS basket.
 
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Mechanic       12/15/2007 4:30:22 PM
How about other JDAM augmentation programs: AMSTE, Orca and Hammerhead.

DAMASK moving target capability is questionable. What I have read suggests it compares the whole scene not just the target point. This make it less than ideal LGB replacement.

 
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reefdiver       12/15/2007 7:13:32 PM

How about other JDAM augmentation programs: AMSTE, Orca and Hammerhead.

DAMASK moving target capability is questionable. What I have read suggests it compares the whole scene not just the target point. This make it less than ideal LGB replacement.


Doesn't AMSTE just allow updating GPS coordinates on the fly? Its still GPS - not that it can be jammed that easily (especially with the new satellites), but some contend it can be.
I haven't heard much about Orca and Hammerhead going into production, but mmwave and SAR are basically doing image recognition aren't they?
DAMASK is supposed to be in initial production now.
 
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Mechanic       12/16/2007 3:45:17 PM
AMSTE adds datalink for moving target capability and I think it's in production. I haven't either found recent articles about Orca and Hammerhead, which I think lost to DAMASK.
 
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Shirrush    A good idea.   12/16/2007 5:53:25 PM
It will sell recon pods and UAV's as well.
So, who's on the market for this new class of smart killer robots, apart from DAMASK and Spice?

 
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reefdiver       12/17/2007 2:25:40 PM

It will sell recon pods and UAV's as well.
So, who's on the market for this new class of smart killer robots, apart from DAMASK and Spice?


Funny you don't hear much about Spice - its an incredible weapon as well.
 
I think UAV's will benefit tremendously from image recognition bombs. I was just speculating a mortar crew could even perhaps fire a recon-round and upload approximate GPS and in image to a UAV or F/B aircraft, giving very precise information.
 
Mentioning mortars - I would expect to see image recognition seekers on mortar rounds at some point, as well as on 70mm rockets like the DAGR that already have steering systems for GPS or laser guidance. And why not one on the Excalibur round? How about such seekers on the Viper Strike? I could envision such on a bunch of smaller glide submunitions using something similar to the SFW's Skeeks to seek out specific types of vehicles.
 
It may be difficult to jam GPS, but it can't hurt to have alternatives to it and even laser designation in certain environments.
 
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blacksmith       12/19/2007 11:50:35 PM
One of OIF's little ironies:  Iraqis bought GPS jammers.  US blew them up with GPS bombs.
 
Don't confuse GPS coordinates with inertial coordinates or geo coordinates.  You would not update a GPS position with terrain image.  You would update the inertial position to better coincide with the geo position.
 
I think AMSTE died because the Air Force finally figured out the impracticality of needing a $50 million airplane with a single pilot being guided with two $Billion airplanes (JSTARS) with a combined crew of about 50 to pop a Toyota truck racing across Afghanistan.  The two JSTARS had to be positioned 90 degrees apart from the target so they could triangulate the target position.  A real peer threat is not going to let that happen.
 
 
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Mechanic       12/21/2007 1:22:05 PM
I think AMSTE died because the Air Force finally figured out the impracticality of needing a $50 million airplane with a single pilot being guided with two $Billion airplanes (JSTARS) with a combined crew of about 50 to pop a Toyota truck racing across Afghanistan.  The two JSTARS had to be positioned 90 degrees apart from the target so they could triangulate the target position.  A real peer threat is not going to let that happen.

Why JSTARS have to triangulate to get the target position?

Why there have to be a 90 degree angle to triangulate?

Why the AMSTE technology could not be used with AESA equipped SAR&MTI capable fighters like F-35?

Blacksmith: You recent posts in multiple threads make you look uninformed of these topic. Please add something to back your statements so they don't look like empty barking.
 
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