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Subject: Just musing, but....
Yimmy    3/21/2007 12:07:54 AM
What would we have now if electricity was never invented/discovered? So no form of electronic goods or power sources? What could we do with just combustion engines and hydraulics et al?
 
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Jeff_F_F       3/21/2007 9:13:53 AM
So nothing more advanced than the steam engine... fun.
 
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Ehran       3/21/2007 12:52:02 PM
we could probably muster up a society about equivalent to the 1950's as far as tech goes without the telegraph and telephone.  think we'd stall pretty much at that level though.  airships instead of airplanes probably.
 
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TrustButVerify       3/21/2007 2:16:51 PM
"Steampunk" fiction offers us a glimpse, I think. I believe the biggest "hit" would be to our communications infrastructure; every satifactory form of long-distance communication relies on electricty or electromagnetic forces. (Who wants to depend on carrier pigeons and semaphore stations?) Our knowledge of physics would be locked in the 1860s, which would also have a dampening effect on chemistry. (How can you discover electrons if there's no electricity?)
I posit that land and naval warfare would advance little further than WWI-era technology, and air warfare would be unlikely to progress even this far as it would consits of LTA craft, perhaps including a few zeppelin-launched gliders. Assuming certain advances in steam-power (reliability and miniaturization), the year 2000 might bear a superficial resemblance to 1940 or 1955.
Interestingly, internal combustion would eventually be perfected using non-electrical ignition methods. There are certainly plenty of precedents, such as diesel engines, and this even allows for jet engines. So you are left with a sort of retro world which badly needs long-distance communications, and whose scientific progress is crippled if not outright retarded.
Can anyone imagine a way around the communications problem? Grand military tactics would be stuck in the age of Napoleon, and aircraft would be a dicey proposition at best. Go on, try and operate an airfield without radio- I just dare you.
 
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andyf    interesting prospct   3/22/2007 11:15:55 AM
that would make a good premise for a scifi novel.
preface.
 
Galvani struggled up the step stairs to his laboratory, the  shouts of people in the crowded streets ringing up the narrow whitewashed stairway.The heavy stack of borrowed books teetered in his arms. He grabbed at the top most tome. He missed, and in doing so, slipped.
It was an hour before his maid found him at the base of the treacherous stair in a heap of books. Neck broken.
A minor mystery told to the next three generations of the maids family was the dead frog pinned to a board in Galvani's workshop- 'as if the man had run out of plates'.
 
 
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TrustButVerify       3/22/2007 11:45:51 AM
It's such an interesting concept... I remember a short story in some sci-fi anthology ("The Waverlies", 1945, by Fredrick Brown) about Earth being de-electrified by an invasion of electron-based lifeforms who simply "ate" every electron we could generate; dynamos stopped cranking out power because they were being drained by these "waverlies" and everyone reverted back to horse-power. (Brown overlooked the possibility of non-electric ignition for combustion, it seems.) Of course, that society had already enjoyed the benefits of knowing what an electron was. They had already made the fundamental scientific discoveries.
That's what really puts a knot in my brain; without electron theory, there is no relativity; no quantum physics; no Maxwell equations... The ramifications are staggering.

I mean... If you can't ever really get chemistry without understanding particles, that impacts so many other fields as to boggle the mind. What about magnetism? Without magnetism there are no compasses. How would sea trade progress without it?

Thanks for an interesting thread, yimmy!

 
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Ehran       3/22/2007 12:07:36 PM
sailors had compasses long before electricity was understood.  it's perfectly possible to develop and operate items without understanding the underlying principles that make it work.  how many internet users have any but the vaguest notion what's going on inside the box they use for instance.
 
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TrustButVerify    Magnetism   3/22/2007 1:23:07 PM

sailors had compasses long before electricity was understood.  it's perfectly possible to develop and operate items without understanding the underlying principles that make it work.  how many internet users have any but the vaguest notion what's going on inside the box they use for instance.


Implicitly understood. I ask the question because it falls in a gray area; does this hypothetical world understand any basic principals of magnetism? If not, they might be stuck with using lodestones for compasses, an ungainly option at best. The alternative is to allow the creation of magnets but no understanding of the function. A minor issue, really; just a conceptual issue. As far as I can tell there have been several stories and books which considered how a society would change if electricity were taken away, but none which considered the angle we're on now. I wish I had a physics major around to bounce ideas off of. Or even a chemist or an engineer.
 
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andyf    odd   3/23/2007 10:49:12 AM
it'd be a world of ununified sciences.
forget all the light metals- aluminium,titanium, sodium etc.
magnets- they would have magnets- but they wouldnt know what caused it.
probably a sort of maical thinking would prevail- like the alchemists
 
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TrustButVerify    Waveries   4/4/2007 2:16:21 PM
I just found that Fred Brown story I mentioned- turns out I was a letter off- it's Waveries, not Waverlies. And it's online
here.

 
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Ehran       4/5/2007 11:56:52 AM
it would be a strange world to put it mildly.  another case in point in the we can do this but have no idea why it works this way event is the use by ancients of electroplating.  an archeologist found a curious clay contraption which they dated back to i think it was early babylonian times.  while he had no real idea what it was for one of the students he was working with thought it looked rather like the electroplating rig he used in another class.  they tested it and one of the compartments was highly positive for citric acid and it turns out that citric acid is enough to make a pretty weak electroplating circuit.  looked like the thing was for making jewellery and would have called for a fair bit of patience as well as a lot of fruit but it would have worked.
 
we could well have had primitive phones in local areas without any real understanding of why they actually worked for instance.  macro scale tinkering can be surprisingly effective at making "stuff" happen.
 
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