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Subject: What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.
Pars    12/16/2005 5:07:38 PM
I wonder if Denmark could stop a USSR naval inasion launched at day 1 of a conventional 3rd World war. I have read somewhere some time ago that USSR had a corps in the Baltics for that mission.
 
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TheArmchairCmd    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/16/2005 5:53:26 PM
It was a Polish Corps and the USSR pretty much gave up the idea of an amphibious assault in 1981, as it had become impossible. The resistance was too great and they would have been defeated. The Soviet Armoured assault through Europe is another matter. But the Jutland Division (armoured) would have moved down into Northern Germany an joined up with the British 7th Armoured and a German Mech Div in a corps to meet the WARPACT forces. Rest of Denmark would have been defended by the Zealand Division, some independent brigades and huge amount of static and Home Guard units. The Polish and other WARPACT archives were opened some years ago which gave an insight into their plans. The Danish government ordered a report on the Cold War that dug into their archives. A summary in English can be found http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/Books2005/Koldkrig/KK_highlights2.pdf TARGET=_blank>here. The objective for the Poles and East Germans was to secure the Danish Straits so that the Soviet Baltic Fleet could have free acces to the North Sea. If they hadn't succeeded in a week, 73 targets were identified for nuclear attack in order to facilitate this. This http://www.koldkrigsudredningen.dk/docs/Polske%20kilder/1954%20Oevelseskort.pdf TARGET=_blank>Polish exercise map shows what the amphibious assault would look like (Polish archives). And finally this colourful map from a pre-Powerpoint-era Polish presentation. :) http://www.dupi.dk/webdocs/attack_plan.jpg ALT=BOOM!>
 
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FJV    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/16/2005 6:05:54 PM
The communists lost the cold war, because they started doing powerpoint presentations before we did?
 
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TheArmchairCmd    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/16/2005 6:07:10 PM
That would be the short answer, yes.
 
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RaptorZ    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/16/2005 8:33:20 PM
armchair that was a pretty interesting piece of info you just put there....thanks.... I don't normally like to click on links b/c of wonderful virus's etc but is that link to more info like the one you posted? Also, The use of Nuclear weapons if objectives were not taken....I wonder how many in the world would tell you you're a liar if you disclosed that info?
 
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TheArmchairCmd    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/16/2005 9:10:08 PM
The report I referred to and got the links and images from is in Danish. The pasted link would give some context to the source material in general. http://www.isn.ethz.ch/php/index.htm Also, The use of Nuclear weapons if objectives were not taken....I wonder how many in the world would tell you you're a liar if you disclosed that info? I have no acces to disclosed material, so how can disclose anything? ;) No. I got it from the media (papers) some years ago. I don't lie, but I am of course subject to bad memory or bad sources. You should note that I do no scholarly work on this kind of material.
 
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TheArmchairCmd    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/16/2005 9:17:50 PM
Also, The use of Nuclear weapons if objectives were not taken....I wonder how many in the world would tell you you're a liar if you disclosed that info? Btw, why is this so inconceivable?
 
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TheArmchairCmd    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/17/2005 1:46:27 AM
Ok, I am down with the flu and missing out on the christmas dinner parties. :( But then again, it gave me time to read chapter 53 (p.603-642) and I have noted the following. Reasons as to why WARPACT de facto scrapped the amphibious assault on Denmark late 70'ties to early 80'ties. - ~20 sophisticated NATO SSKs was considered a major problem. - Lack of military sealift. Civilian vessels were found to be an operational nightmare, vulnerable, slow offloading. They even tried using fishing vessels (Taiwan Straits, anyone?) - Possibility of nuclear mines and increased sophistication of conv. mines. - Polish naval intelligence declared it couldn't detect and track NATO SSKs in 1980. - Several ASW exercises had not satisfactory results. - West German deployment of fighter-bombers intended for use in the Western Baltic. - East Germany disbanding their marine infantry in the early eighties. - As the years went on, WARPACT had to narrow down the number of beachheads in order not split their forces in the face of the increasing competence of the Danish military. As time went by they shifted their focus from the Danish Straits to the Kieler Canal. The WARPACT amphibious landings on Zealand would include 3 understrength Polish Divs. 1 elite armour, 1 elite airborne and 1 motorized plus an additional Soviet marine Reg. The East Germans would attack Lolland Falster with their marines. They would have faced a similar sized force. On nukes In the 60'ties the Poles would use 10-15 nuclear warheads clearing the beachheads and suppressing the Danish Army with the landings taking place immediately afterwards. Later they also had 4-5 nukes used as antishipping and for hitting coastal fortifications (like a 40kT device for the Langeland Fortress). ... I'm cutting it short. WARPACT doctrine on nuclear weapons change over time. In the 80'ties it would be no first use, and keep it to the European Theatre, as they expected to win conventionally. However, if WARPACT sensed an attack was imminent a preemptive strike would be launched. They also expected NATO to be pressed to using nukes around D+4, and made their objective timetables with or without nuclear commitment. Five days could be saved in the assault on Denmark. The Poles had ~55 tactical nukes (specific yield) for use against Denmark during most of the period. Strategic targets would be hit by the Soviet with bigger yield bombs. Yes, I made a sweeping statement on the 73 nukes. But looking into it, it was not that lame. It was the only part of the post I did not have 100% confidence in. ;) Hope it clears it up. TAC
 
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RaptorZ    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/17/2005 1:57:33 AM
Also, The use of Nuclear weapons if objectives were not taken....I wonder how many in the world would tell you you're a liar if you disclosed that info? Btw, why is this so inconceivable? Why is this so inconceivable? Well, There are similar threats through out the world currently that people say is a farce, could never happen, is inconceivable.....so I wonder 1 of 2 things, what happened with the realization of threats among common citizens in Europe, or 2) it's no longer in their back yard so they don't care.....that's what I was gettin at.... I still think that kind of stuff is very interesting that you posted thought
 
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TheArmchairCmd    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/17/2005 2:11:28 AM
It could be one of three. 1) European mentality gotten used to threat of nuclear weapons during Cold War - another nation with nukes - big deal. 2) It is not in our back yard. 3) Maybe it is a worry, but how to go about it, huh?
 
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Thomas3    RE:What if? 3rd World War in the 80's. USSR invasion of Denmark.   12/20/2005 7:58:25 AM
LtGen Hillingsø has looked into the WAPA archieves, and concluded with the planned use of nukes we wouldn't have made it. The WAPA doctrine did prescribe an early use of nukes until 1986. It was only after Tjernobyl the russians realised what they were playing with - according to Hillingsø. The problem is that the WAPA would hardly have achieved thier objective and secured a passage through the Belts. The invasion on Lolland is due to the fact that the control of Danish waters rest on Fermern Belt between Lolland and Rügen.
 
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