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Subject: Explain yourselves..
Hugo    11/2/2006 3:59:09 PM
Sorry, don't have anything in English, but a member of the Danish Volkspartei, a Mr Sören Krarup, has asked for the "return" of Schleswig - You may know it as Slesvig. So what's the story gentlemen? Forderung: Südschleswig zurück an Dänen? Ein Abgeordneter der Dänischen Volkspartei (DVP) will, dass Südschleswig mit seinen etwa 50.000 Angehörigen der dänischen Minderheit wieder Dänemark zugesprochen wird. Es gehört seit einer Volksabstimmung 1920 (sic) zu Deutschland. Der Parlamentarier Sören Krarup (DVP) hat sich als erster bekannter dänischer Politiker seit fünf Jahrzehnten für die Rückgabe von Südschleswig an Dänemark eingesetzt. Krarup, dessen rechtpopulistische Partei als Mehrheitsbeschafferin im Folketing mit der Regierung von Ministerpräsident Anders Fogh Rasmussen kooperiert, sagte am Montag im Rundfunksender DR unter Hinweis auf die dänische Minderheit im nördlichen Schleswig-Holstein: "Südschleswig ist altes dänisches Land. Man kann nur hoffen, dass die dänischen Südschleswiger wieder natürliche Kinder des dänischen Mutterlandes werden, indem sie in unsere Grenzen zurückkommen." Minderheitenvertreter winkt ab Der Sprecher des Südschleswigschen Wählerverbandes (SSW), Lars Bethge, distanzierte sich von den Äußerungen. "Das ist eine Frage, die für uns überhaupt nicht zur Diskussion steht und die in keiner Weise aktuell ist. ... Wir nehmen das nicht ernst." Der SSW ist die politische Vertretung der dänischen und friesischen Minderheit in Schleswig-Holstein. Die Partei sitzt im Landtag in Kiel, weil für sie die Fünf-Prozent-Hürde bei Wahlen nicht gilt. Das Gebiet in Schleswig-Holstein nördlich der Eider mit etwa 50.000 Angehörigen der dänischen Minderheit verblieb nach einer Volksabstimmung 1920 bei Deutschland. Der im dänischen Grenzbezirk Nordschleswig als Parlamentsabgeordneter gewählte Krarup sagte über die von beiden Regierungen garantierte Dauerhaftigkeit dieser Grenze: "Die Wirklichkeit ist niemals endgültig." Ausschlaggebend sei nur der Wunsch der Angehörigen der dänischen Minderheit, "wieder dänisch zu sein". Krarup hat sich als Theologe, Pfarrer und Politiker seit Jahrzehnten als einer der bekanntesten Sprecher der Rechten in Dänemark profiliert. Er ist einer der maßgeblichen Sprecher zur Ausländerpolitik seiner Partei. (Ag.) 30.10.2006 - Politik / International http://www.diepresse.com/Artikel.asp...rt=a&id=595953 Südschleswig erstreckt sich von der Eider und dem Nord-Ostsee-Kanal (früher: Eiderkanal) bis zur Flensburger Förde und besteht aus den Kreisen Schleswig-Flensburg, Flensburg und Nordfriesland und dem Nordteil des Kreises Rendsburg-Eckernförde. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCdschleswig
 
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TAC II       11/2/2006 4:46:39 PM

Mr Sören Krarup is a nutjob who gets most of his ideological input from a 19th century Danish outlook on the world.

Denmark has no formal claim on Schleswig. Both the Danish minority in Germany and the German minority in Denmark have rejected any claims either way. the story has only received the tiniest amount of attention, like a few hours in the media.

Nobody cares. He has had some impact on immigration policies, but not much else.

He might be the only person in Denmark to think this way re Schleswig.
 
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JIMF       11/2/2006 6:26:11 PM
As I recall Bismark grabbed Schleswig-Holstein from Denmark in the 1860s.  The British Prime Minister, Palmerston I think, voiced some veiled threat of intervention, but Bismark was undeterred.   I would think if there was a score to settle on this issue it would have been taken care of in 1945, or perhaps at Versailles.  Is Holstein incorporated in Schleswig? 
 
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TAC II       11/2/2006 7:16:02 PM
Yes and no. As part of the Kingdom of Denmark they were duchies. Seperate entities, but formally undivisible. That meant that at the time, 1860s Schleswig was Danish minded and Holstein was German. So if Denmark wished to keep Schleswig we had also to keep Holstein (and Lauenburg).

Bismarck used the sentiment for independence in Holstein to grab both duchies.

We did get Sønderjylland - the Northern part of Schleswig - back after Versailles, decided on popular referendum.

After WW2 I think Churcill (?) offered Denmark a further revision of the border. The Danish govt would have none of it, considering the issue settled. Curiously the Germans in the relevant areas were positive. But they had also just gotten an asswhoppin and weren't particularly proud of being German at the time. Holocaust etc.

As I recall Bismark grabbed Schleswig-Holstein from Denmark in the 1860s.  The British Prime Minister, Palmerston I think, voiced some veiled threat of intervention, but Bismark was undeterred.   I would think if there was a score to settle on this issue it would have been taken care of in 1945, or perhaps at Versailles.  Is Holstein incorporated in Schleswig? 



 
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JIMF       11/3/2006 12:08:35 PM
Thanks for clearing that up TAC II.   However, I'm still waiting for the post where Thomas implicates Sweden.   
 
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Hugo    Danmark   11/3/2006 3:49:45 PM
Actually, I was only pulling your leg and thought I'd bump the Denmark board up a couple of notches.
 
There are only around 50,000 Danish Germans and I imagine that there are a similar number of German Danes.  The small Danish community in Germany actually has special status and has automatic seats in the Schleswig-Holstein regional parliament - their party are leftwingers which usually align themselves with the treacherous Social Democrats to the Province's despair. 
 
There are many in Northern Schleswig Holstein with both German and Danish ancestors including family of mine (with names like Rasmussen) who live right up on the border.  In fact the Northern Schleswig-Holsteiners have doubtless more in common with their Danish neighbours than they do with say, the Bavarians.
 
Don't worry Thomas, I'll still buy my hotdogs in Tönder - which by the way is an ancient German town ; )
 
 
 
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Hugo    Prussian Schleswig   11/3/2006 3:56:31 PM

As I recall Bismark grabbed Schleswig-Holstein from Denmark in the 1860s.  The British Prime Minister, Palmerston I think, voiced some veiled threat of intervention, but Bismark was undeterred.   I would think if there was a score to settle on this issue it would have been taken care of in 1945, or perhaps at Versailles.  Is Holstein incorporated in Schleswig? 


I don't know whether grabbed is the right word.  Denmark was once a regional power and had many German territories including a large part of what is now Hamburg (Altona).  The King of Denmark was a German so had territories that were his by aristocratic inheritance including Schleswig-Holstein which wasn't a part of Denmark but whose Duke became Denmark's king. 
 
Interestingly, the Danes (unlike the Poles not to mention the French : ( ..)  honoured the democratic wish of the people and didn't take more of the territory than that whose populace desired to join Denmark in 1920.    This also meant that Denmark didn't suffer any territorial losses during WW2. 
 
The British threats you were referring to are actually quite humourous.  When confronted with the possibility that the British might land in Schleswig-Holstein, Bismark, when asked what he would do replied, -  "have them arrested." 
 
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Thomas       11/4/2006 8:30:26 AM
Actually the problem dates back to the middle ages, as Slesvig and Holsten were personal dukedoms of the Danish King, not a part of the kingdom proper.
The population of Holsten have always had a majority of germanspeakers - well sort of: Sie snakken Plat. Slesvig became bit more iffy during the occupation 1864-1920.
The refendum was planned on a community for community basis and gathered in zones, where there was a clear danish majorty in zone 1 and we lost zone 2 - just (there was a danish majority in Flensburg) and a referendum in zone 3 did not serve any purpose.
The interesting thing is that it was the ONLY area that changed nationality due to on of several popular referendi after WW1, there were lots of places that would have: Notably Tirol, but that had been promised to Italy.
If we dwelve deeper into why the referendum took place - and here some of the archieves are still closed:
 
1. The sale of the Virgin Islands to the USA probably had something to do with it, as the suggestion was American - Wilson had little real interest in European politics.
2. the French wanted to hurt Germany any odd way - if that meant taking chunks out of Germany - fine with them.
3. Britain wanted the banks of the Kieler Kanal on different hands to prevent Geramny moving naval forces internally (which was why the Canal was build) from the Baltic to the North Sea, which is probably why Churchill proposed it 1945'ish, as Churchill had been secretary for the Navy during WW1.
 
The version I've heard was that Stalin suggested Denmark getting the whole of Slesvig-Holsten in return for handing over Bornholm to the Russians, that was not going to happen - which the USA stressed during the time Denmark was considering being one of the founders of Nato.
 
Actually: The Slesvig Holsten solution does serve as an example of how severe national conflicts - going back to the middle ages - CAN be solved - given goodwill on both sides.
Today the German minority in Denmark cannot get votes for a single seat in parliament - even though they are exempt from the 2% minimum rule.
The Danish in Germany has not had good elections - some of it due to the ineptness of Spoorendonk (which sounds more Friesian than Danish to me) - but more to the point: The vicious infighting between the Socialdemocrats and Conservatives in Slesvig-Holsten has left little room - voter vise - to the Danish minority. As far as I recall: Kiel fell to the conservatives at the last election - something of a disaster for the social democrats.
 
As to Søren Krarup: I can best express it by quoting the characteristic of party leader (Pia Kjærsgaard) by her former - very former - freind in arms Mogens Glistrup (who at least knows more about tax-law than anybody else): "There is NO gap in her ignorance!"
The major problem working with Dansk Folkeparti is their selfimportance and huge ignorance. F.i. Søren Espersen had some very harsh remarks on the sale of the Flyvefisken class to Lithuania. I send him an e-mail pointing out, that it might be  cheaper for us to have the Lithuanians patrol these water, than if we had to do it ourselves. He answered that I had totally misunderstood him ....
The problem is their motormouth is not connected to any sort of brain, and is has not been idling in the time it takes to tell them a few facts of life. They are good at pointing out problems (the least of all talents); but their solutions range from the uninformed to the downright idiotic.
 
 
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Hugo       11/5/2006 6:00:20 AM
"2. the French wanted to hurt Germany any odd way - if that meant taking chunks out of Germany - fine with them.
 
Nothing has genuinely changed.
 
3. Britain wanted the banks of the Kieler Kanal on different hands to prevent Geramny moving naval forces internally (which was why the Canal was build) from the Baltic to the North Sea, which is probably why Churchill proposed it 1945'ish, as Churchill had been secretary for the Navy during WW1."
 
That doesn't surprise me in the least - The English didn't even want German re-unification forty-five years later.
 
I didn't know that Flensburg had voted to join Denmark - that's interesting.  It's a shame that although so many Schleswigers spend time in Denmark, so few today speak Danish.  I think it should be compulsory for school students to study Danish in Schleswig-Holstein.
 
 
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Thomas       11/5/2006 7:38:05 PM
Well there are actually very good opportunities to study Danish in school in Slesvig. They are heavily subsidised from Denmark - both state and considerable private funds. Mr. Møller is the grey emminence behind this.
 
Use compulsion: Nah, nothing good will come of that.
 
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