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Subject: America vs. Russia
sooner    1/30/2004 11:22:14 AM
Allies--supposedly. Who would strategically win a war?
 
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McDohl       6/6/2007 12:41:14 PM
whoops misspelled stealth there
 
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RockyMTNClimber    America v. Russia   6/7/2007 11:14:50 AM
 
I suppose we could say it has been happening for along time. Now instead of a military stand-off we are fighting a classic economic struggle. Russia is trying desperately to hold onto its caste of "Royals" centrally owning and controling their economic centers v. the US model of private and corporate ownership of the economic centers. I think we can judge who is winning.
 
On the topic of "Royals" they used to have names like Kathrine & Peter, now their names have changed to Stalin, Breznev, Putin.  No real change there.
 
It took us 50 years but we drove the Russian frontier back over a thousand miles from where it was in 1945 and we are still driving. With minimal direct military action.
 
The war is won against Russia. On to China.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
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jastayme3       2/27/2008 4:05:24 AM



The fact of the matter is the average Russian(and Chinese) probably thinks Americans are a fine people.  But, the U.S government has betrayed Russia after the Soviet collapse.  It's one thing to give lip-service about democracy and freedom, but it's quite another to treat a fallen great power with respect and dignity.  And that is something that the U.S  has failed to do with Russia, or with us for that matter.  Instead of helping Russia after they became a democracy, the U.S stripped them of all honor, and took away their vassal states.  You cajoled(is that the right term?) them to shrink their strategic weapons, while you building up a missile defense at home.  In the mid-90s, the Russians followed the advice of U.S economic delegates to that country.  When that bankrupted the Russian economy, the U.S condescendingly treated the Russians like paupers.  Is it any wonder that Russia's government system has transformed into what it is now(an authoritarian oligarchy with handpicked elections)

Now from a Chinese perspective, it's all very depressingly similar to the treatment we received from the U.S at the end of the cold war, where we were chucked out as an expendable pawn.  All of the economic/military agreements between our two nations were simply cancelled with the U.S keeping all the funds that China paid for them.  Do you realize that both Moscow and Beijing used to be the seat of vast Eurasian empires that dominated the world?    The Russians can't forget the power they had, and neither can we.  Russia is now committed into an alliance with China.




 

Yes, cajoled is one possible correct word choice for that sentence. 

 

Gee, how gauche of us to "betray" Russia by having anything to do with the liberation of their vassal states.  If that's supposed to be a badge of shame, I wear it with pride.  Oh, and we've treated them condescendingly.  Tsk tsk. 

 

Threat them with respect and dignity?  I think you already realize this, but I will remind you that while all humans suffer to some degree under the sin of pride, in general Americans don't give a squat for the concept of "face"--personal or national--and are bemused by people who do.  Furthermore, we don't give a squat whether you think we ought to be concerned about "face" or whether you think we are inferior for not giving a squat about it.  If that causes you or your country a problem--get over yourself. 

 

I have no problem with terminating a contract if it's no longer in our best interests.  However, I do agree that we shold not keep funds specifically for that portion of any contract whose services were not rendered.  If you had already paid $300million for contract work on an F-8 upgrade, for example, but only $200million worth of work had been performed when we unilaterally withdrew from the contract, then we should have returned $100million.  I have no idea what the specific circumstances were of the situation you are referring to, and I hope we did not cheat China the way you assert. 

 

Moscow and Beijing used to be the center of vast empires?  Yeah, and so were a zillion other cities over the centuries.  Whatever.  If you and like-minded Russians want to ally to regain some lost glory, that's no skin off me nose.  Knock yourselves out.  We can go back to Cold War footing and I can be guaranteed full employment for the next five years until I reach mandatory military retirement, and then at least 15+ years until civilian retirement.  Hoody-hoo! 

 



 

That's not precisely true. No nation can make war effectively if it doesn't care about face. Americans simply don't obsess about it.
But I fail to see where the betrayal is. We were enemies at the time and stripping vassals away is what you do to enemies. A strange custom. But we never promised not to do so and we several times said made it clear that we would like to do so.

 
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afrc       3/2/2008 8:43:25 PM
Who would strategically win a war?

What war are we talking about? Nuclear war? Nukes will win. Say no nukes. What is war anyway? It is one thing to bomb a country back into the Stone Age and another to take it over. Considering what we find out lately about Russian weapon quality, and considering that Russia still can't equip it's army with newest weapons en mass (a couple of show systems don't count) I say it is possible to bomb the hell out of Russia, but taking it over is next to impossible, especially considering all kinds of mistakes US will make during the war, just like mistakes made in Iraq - no clear politics, no knowledge of the culture, failure to secure weapon storages, failure to provide enough boots on the ground, failure to provide the military with the right equipment for the job (it took years for armored hummers and M1 TASK mods to appear in the field), etc.

Many Russians seem to be very confident about their military. T-90/80 (even upgraded T-72) is better than M1, Su-3X (even Su-27) is better than F-15 and even than F-22, AK is the real gun for war and M-16 is just for show. No wonder that quite a few Russian believe that they will kick US butt no problem
 
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jastayme3       3/27/2008 1:59:07 PM







The fact of the matter is the average Russian(and Chinese) probably thinks Americans are a fine people.  But, the U.S government has betrayed Russia after the Soviet collapse.  It's one thing to give lip-service about democracy and freedom, but it's quite another to treat a fallen great power with respect and dignity.  And that is something that the U.S  has failed to do with Russia, or with us for that matter.  Instead of helping Russia after they became a democracy, the U.S stripped them of all honor, and took away their vassal states.  You cajoled(is that the right term?) them to shrink their strategic weapons, while you building up a missile defense at home.  In the mid-90s, the Russians followed the advice of U.S economic delegates to that country.  When that bankrupted the Russian economy, the U.S condescendingly treated the Russians like paupers.  Is it any wonder that Russia's government system has transformed into what it is now(an authoritarian oligarchy with handpicked elections)

Now from a Chinese perspective, it's all very depressingly similar to the treatment we received from the U.S at the end of the cold war, where we were chucked out as an expendable pawn.  All of the economic/military agreements between our two nations were simply cancelled with the U.S keeping all the funds that China paid for them.  Do you realize that both Moscow and Beijing used to be the seat of vast Eurasian empires that dominated the world?    The Russians can't forget the power they had, and neither can we.  Russia is now committed into an alliance with China.








 



Yes, cajoled is one possible correct word choice for that sentence. 



 



Gee, how gauche of us to "betray" Russia by having anything to do with the liberation of their vassal states.  If that's supposed to be a badge of shame, I wear it with pride.  Oh, and we've treated them condescendingly.  Tsk tsk. 



 



Threat them with respect and dignity?  I think you already realize this, but I will remind you that while all humans suffer to some degree under the sin of pride, in general Americans don't give a squat for the concept of "face"--personal or national--and are bemused by people who do.  Furthermore, we don't give a squat whether you think we ought to be concerned about "face" or whether you think we are inferior for not giving a squat about it.  If that causes you or your country a problem--get over yourself. 



 



I have no problem with terminating a contract if it's no longer in our best interests.  However, I do agree that we shold not keep funds specifically for that portion of any contract whose services were not rendered.  If you had already paid $300million for contract work on an F-8 upgrade, for example, but only $200million worth of work had been performed when we unilaterally withdrew from the contract, then we should have returned $100million.  I have no idea what the specific circumstances were of the situation you are referring to, and I hope we did not cheat China the way you assert. 



 



Moscow and Beijing used to be the center of vast empires?  Yeah, and so were a zillion other cities over the centuries.  Whatever.  If you and like-minded Russians want to ally to regain some lost glory, that's no skin off me nose.  Knock yourselves out.  We can go back to Cold War footing and I can be guaranteed full employment for the next five years until I reach mandatory military retirement, and then at least 15+ years until civilian retirement.  Hoody-hoo! 



 






 



That's not precisely true. No nation can make war effectively if it doesn't care about face. Americans simply don't obsess about it.
But I fail to see where the betrayal is. We were enemies at the time and stripping vassals away is what you do to enemies. A strange custom. But we never promised not to do so and we several times said made it clear that we would like to do so.


 I think it is not so much humility as that Americans are taught to treat face kind of the
way an aristocrat treats money. With a feign
 
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jastayme3       4/1/2008 11:39:22 AM














The fact of the matter is the average Russian(and Chinese) probably thinks Americans are a fine people.  But, the U.S government has betrayed Russia after the Soviet collapse.  It's one thing to give lip-service about democracy and freedom, but it's quite another to treat a fallen great power with respect and dignity.  And that is something that the U.S  has failed to do with Russia, or with us for that matter.  Instead of helping Russia after they became a democracy, the U.S stripped them of all honor, and took away their vassal states.  You cajoled(is that the right term?) them to shrink their strategic weapons, while you building up a missile defense at home.  In the mid-90s, the Russians followed the advice of U.S economic delegates to that country.  When that bankrupted the Russian economy, the U.S condescendingly treated the Russians like paupers.  Is it any wonder that Russia's government system has transformed into what it is now(an authoritarian oligarchy with handpicked elections)

Now from a Chinese perspective, it's all very depressingly similar to the treatment we received from the U.S at the end of the cold war, where we were chucked out as an expendable pawn.  All of the economic/military agreements between our two nations were simply cancelled with the U.S keeping all the funds that China paid for them.  Do you realize that both Moscow and Beijing used to be the seat of vast Eurasian empires that dominated the world?    The Russians can't forget the power they had, and neither can we.  Russia is now committed into an alliance with China.














 






Yes, cajoled is one possible correct word choice for that sentence. 






 






Gee, how gauche of us to "betray" Russia by having anything to do with the liberation of their vassal states.  If that's supposed to be a badge of shame, I wear it with pride.  Oh, and we've treated them condescendingly.  Tsk tsk. 






 






Threat them with respect and dignity?  I think you already realize this, but I will remind you that while all humans suffer to some degree under the sin of pride, in general Americans don't give a squat for the concept of "face"--personal or national--and are bemused by people who do.  Furthermore, we don't give a squat whether you think we ought to be concerned about "face" or whether you think we are inferior for not giving a squat about it.  If that causes you or your country a problem--get over yourself. 






 






I have no problem with terminating a contract if it's no longer in our best interests.  However, I do agree that we shold not keep funds specifically for that portion of any contract whose services were not rendered.  If you had already paid $300million for contract work on an F-8 upgrade, for example, but only $200million worth of work had been performed when we unilaterally withdrew from the contract, then we should have returned $100million.  I have no idea what the specific circumstances were of the situation you are referring to, and I hope we did not cheat China the way you assert. 






 






Moscow and Beijing used to be the center of vast empires?  Yeah, and so were a zillion other cities over the centuries.  Whatever.  If you and like-minded Russians want to ally to regain some lost glory, that's no skin off me nose.  Knock yourselves out.  We can go back to Cold War footing and I can be guaranteed full employment for the next five years until I reach mandatory military retirement, and then at least 15+ years until civilian retirement.  Hoody-hoo! 






 










 





That's not precisely true. No nation can make war effectively if it doesn't care about face. Americans simply don't obsess about it.
But I fail to see where the betrayal is. We were enemies at the time and stripping vassals a
 
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displacedjim       4/1/2008 2:02:37 PM
Jastayme3, over the next few weeks and months, please tak to family, friends, and co-workers who are recent East Asian immigrants, and ask them give you their opinions about how they think people in the old country view "face" and how they think Americans born and raised here view "face."  I'll do the same.  When we get opinions from about a dozen or so each, let's compare notes.
 
 
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Photon       4/1/2008 3:55:54 PM

Who would strategically win a war?


What war are we talking about? Nuclear war? Nukes will win. Say no nukes. What is war anyway? It is one thing to bomb a country back into the Stone Age and another to take it over. Considering what we find out lately about Russian weapon quality, and considering that Russia still can't equip it's army with newest weapons en mass (a couple of show systems don't count) I say it is possible to bomb the hell out of Russia, but taking it over is next to impossible, especially considering all kinds of mistakes US will make during the war, just like mistakes made in Iraq - no clear politics, no knowledge of the culture, failure to secure weapon storages, failure to provide enough boots on the ground, failure to provide the military with the right equipment for the job (it took years for armored hummers and M1 TASK mods to appear in the field), etc.

Many Russians seem to be very confident about their military. T-90/80 (even upgraded T-72) is better than M1, Su-3X (even Su-27) is better than F-15 and even than F-22, AK is the real gun for war and M-16 is just for show. No wonder that quite a few Russian believe that they will kick US butt no problem

If I were to take on Russia, I would resist 'occupation' scenarios.  Go after Russian demography.  Which means .... use long-range weapons to go after their infrastructures, especially transportation networks, energy production centers, and food storage facilities.  Force the Russians to endure their very own long and harsh winter seasons with inadequate stocks of energy and food.  Instead of building up an army of occupation forces, build up 'death squads' instead, whose objective is to not to hold towns and cities, but to hunt down surviving Russian population.  Make as many pillaging raids as possible.
 
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displacedjim       4/1/2008 4:52:49 PM
Photon, go back to the video games.
 
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xwing       4/4/2008 6:22:53 PM

first off north korea has the second largest army in the world. China is first. And also the US could beat china with only a million soldiers against 20 million so why couldn't it beat Russia's soldiers. Second off, the Russian economy/military has been on a decline for the past 20 years. China could probably beat Europe. The European Union could beat Russia. And definitely the US could beat Russia. Russia's soldiers *were* as good as the Iraqi soldiers (now their all dead or prisoners). There was one battle against iraq. 100 US marines against 10,000 Iraqi soldiers. By the end of the battle almost all the Iraqis were dead and the marines only had a few casualties. Plus HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE PATRIOT MISSILE. The US is installing them everywhere. Russia will not be able to touch any country with an ICBM. Plus american missiles can shoot much farther than russian missiles. Also the US has missiles in turkey just a little bit away from Moscow. Moscow *did* have nukes in Cuba years ago. They don't now. Their missiles are thousands of miles away from the United States. Our missiles are in range to strike any Russian city within an hour.

PS. For all you hate Bush people out there. We aren't losing in Iraq. It's always been hard for every country to occupy another. Look at Russia and Afghanistan years ago. Not the 21st century war. The Afghanistani used Guerilla tactics to harass the Russian army. Russia was forced to leave because of that. On a convential type war the US could possibly take on almost the entire world. At this point. Unless Hillary becomes President. Then we wouldn't be able to beat Mexico

just trolling?
 
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