Your arguments are good and have a reason. But in the end it would be better for all if the Turks in Germany would be assimilted Germans. That would end all internal problems of society (and there would be no need for a minority complex too). The EU-membership would be bad for Turkey and Europe as well. Both would be in danger to loose its identity. And both are fine and worthy culures. If we got a lebanese development here in Europe there will a real danger of civil war here in Europe 30 - 50 years ahead. There is no reason to risk that (at least from a european point of view). I would prefer a strong alliance between Germany (and Europe) and Turkey. First there are the economic merits you mentioned (you do not need EU-membership for that). And second (we are on a military website)the turks always have been a brave people with brave soldiers (remember Gallipoli and other battles; even in Korean War in the 50ies - as I heard - the Turks are remembered as very brave and reliable allies). So we would be in the best of all worlds if we got an strong alliance without EU-membership. An alliance together with EU-membership would not last long. Civil War in Europe even could escalate to an european/turkish war in the future if both culures may clash. But an strong alliance may geve us a bright future.

The US could easily bomb Turkey's air bases, naval forces, airports, tanks, weapon factories, energy centrals, dams, important industries and on and on... Turkey would become a third world nation like Pakistan if the US should bomb this country..

@Swordslinger Turkish navy vs US navy?! The US navy is stronger than the navies of other countries combined!! Don't you read books on warfare/military technology? And also the US airforce is so much stronger than Turkish Airforce (or any other country's airforce) Turkey has no B-2, B-52, F-117 and so on.. besides the US has much more fighters and bombers.. you should read some reputable sources... I recommend you to read this book: "How to make war" (James F. Dunnigan) I'm currently reading it..

This is an interesting conversation between Clausewitz and Pars. I have not seen focus on this issue from a Euro/Turk viewpoint. Clausewitz you are one of the first Europeans I have really seen as a conservative. Is this a changing view in Europe? Mind you Conservatism does not equal evil, racist etc. I think Conservatives are more grounded...so don't take that the wrong way. Pars I see the same from you but I think those from Muslim countries in general are far more conservative than liberal. Too bad we all can't find the balance, but never mind that. Clausewitz, has the new Pope had any effect on bringing, shall we say a more conservative Christian based value realization to Germany? And is that having an effect on the entry of Turkey into the EU? How serious is it taken when Pope John Paul asked for Christian values be put in the EU Constitution? does that effect Turkey's view of not wanting in b/c of that? At any rate I find this very interesting. Please continue if you both are there, you guys kind of ended it in May...heh Oh and the US attacking Turkey? It'll never happen. loose allies, but allies nevertheless, also Turkey is working closely with Israel on quite a few things...that is never a bad thing when a Muslim and the Jewish state can work together. Also Turkey does have some extremely important value, I believe the Dardanelles (SP) were quite important in history for a reason and still are imo.

It is a basic right of every population to decide if you want to live together with strangers in your country or not. Regarding EU-membership of Turkey 65 % of the german population say NO. After our elections the Christian Democrats (opposing EU-membership of Turkey) have a slight 1% advantage above the Social Democrats (they support it- the elections were made on social rights, taxes and the budget deficit, EU-membership of Turkey played no role). No side got the majority to rule. A compromise will be that after negotiations with turkey (open talks with the aim of membership or privileged partnership) when all EU-memberstates will have to say yes Germany would conduct a referndum. That would mean a clear NO to Turkey. Yesterday we got a new conservative gevernment in Poland. Even if they are US-friendly (the US support a EU-membership of Turkey) this christian/conservative government would clearly say NO. Same for the french, the dutch, the danish, the austrian, the hungarian, the slovak, chech and baltic people to say the least. All want reforms in Turkey. All want to use Tukey for western influence in the muslim world. But noone want them as countrymen in the EU. That will never happen.

The new pope clearly brought a new christian momentum. And the catholic church clearly opposes a EU-membership of Turkey. I guess that Turkey will leave the negotiations because EU-conditions would destroy turkish identity. This way both sides can save face.

I am a Turk who grew up in Australia, but i am a Turk. And my children will be Turkish. And i have completely integrated into Australian western culture, without losing my identity. I was elected the captain of my school thru peers, i got the top mark in the university examinations, and i am part of many cultural and charitable organisations. But along side this i am also the president of turkish student assoication and many other Turkish culture activities. I will not lose my Turkish identity because i love my country, i love my culture, and i love my people. Futhermore, thru out thousands of years our forefathers sacrificed their lives, without thinking twice, so that we may remain Turkish. I will not insult them by forgetting about their sacrifice. When it comes to us being to nationalistic, there is no such thing. I would die for my country, if it was in any threat at all. Without thinking twice. I will spend my whole life conserving our culture and language. What can be to extreme is ignorance. And dont confuse this with patrotism. Ignorance is idiots on this forum calling for a war with Turkey. Ignorance is claiming all those racsist comments being exclaimed about Turkey by Europeans in this forum. With attitudes like that no wonder the Euro-Turks have a hard time integrating. You guys claim there is a culture gap, but looking at the comments made on this forum by the Europeans, i am even more proud to be Turkish. Atleast, even though we are obviuosly biased, we still have a common humanity in us. Do you honestly think that your country is so fantastic that we want to leave our beloved homes and come to you cold, crowded, foreign nation? Even though we know the racsism, cold heartedness, and bigortory that lies ahead? Of course we dont you uneducated idiots! We do so, so that our children will have better lives. What did you do to deserve a better life? what the F**K right do you have to look down upon anyone you is different and poor. You were born into your lives! And if you were born in Turkey or any poor nation, how would u feel, working day and night, and still not being able to give you kids 1 tenth of what some lazy bigot in a European welfare state can give their kids? Have some humanity, have some brains. We are muslim, so bloody what? Does that mean all Christians are good? No! Does that mean all muslims are good? NO! You all look on TV and see muslim terorists, but terorism is increasing as it is being more and more advertised and muslims are being more and more prosecutes againsts. Plus since when have Turks been terorists? Plus no one mentioned terorism when Aremenians were excuting and bombing our embassies? No one mentioned terorism when muslims in Azerbajcan were being killed. No one mentioned terorism when Cyprus was cleansing Turks. Dont get me wrong. IM not religious at all. And im sure alot of biased has been in the pro-Turkish media which i am influenced by. BUT the difference is we can realise this. We arent blind enough to think we are all holy and mighty and the foreigners want our land. Think of it from the other persons view. In Australia, Arabs are the ones prosecuted against. And likewise, they seem to underperform and are involved in alot of crime. In nation surveys, Turks in Australia seem to be among the top few most successful ethnicities along with the Asian countries. This shows, that even though Turks came here much later then Germany, we can succeed if the country allows us too. Id like to relay a final message to all my Turkish kindred, never lose your Turkishness. Never lose our language or culture. We belong together. No matter where in this world we may travel, never forget that tens of millions thru out history have given and devouted their whole lives so that we may keep our culture and our heritage. Never forget you are who you are because of them. Meet and integrate, but never lose and forget. And a final message to the west, get over it. Forget what people's race or religion is. Keep you own culture. If you only accepted foreigners as people and not as some different lower race, they wouldnt be in crime or have less opportunities. Racsism is a thing of the past. You can say all you want, but not accepting a country into Europe, even though you need us, even though if you reject us into the EU your going to have to allow migration from Africa and the MIddle east at increasing rates to substitute your declining population (im doing an honours in Economics so i know what im talking about). So your going to have to take in people from different cultures anyway. It might aswell be Turks, who are a mix of east and west culture. If anyone would like to ask or talk to me my email is [email protected]

Dear Clauswitz, First of all, you are completely ignorant to state that Turks are too nationalistic. Have you forgotten the recent history of your own country? Some members of the Nazi party are still alive and you're pointing fingers? Second of all, the US is probably a stronger ally to Turkey than to Germany anyway, so control your vibrado. And Americans could care less what French and German (the two nations who oppose Turkish entry into EU) people think. they are both on the US's sh*t list, and even members of the general US population don't really care for either of those nations. Thirdly, you are a blatant racist who was obviously raised too closely to the end of WWII and still have some of your own nationalist and Nazi sentiments engrained into your own thinking. Fourth, you are a tool.