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Subject: Another f35 article...with a hint of truth
beepa    8/28/2008 2:21:45 PM
From f16.net F-35 Lightning II News Department of Spendthrift Defence August 28, 2008 (by Eric L. Palmer) - The senior Australian Defence leadership is embarking on a dangerous gamble with taxpayer’s money. This compulsive gambling habit will need a strong intervention by Parliament. The F-35 returns to flight this afternoon at NAS Fort Worth, Lockheed-Martin facility on December 7th, 2007. Defence and corporate interests are working hand in hand to see that Australia commits to the largest defence purchase in history: The Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). The problems with this venture are many. First Australia, Defence White Paper or no, can’t cobble together a roadmap for the long term Defence of the Australian public. There is so much poor input into this process that a path for the security of Australia won’t be worth the paper it is written on. Second, sales people get paid to sell stuff. This means that that given the record of management by Defence on big dollar, high profile weapons purchases which is poor, going for yet more high risk, high dollar weapons systems is asking for more trouble. A slick sales effort and it’s off to the races with the taxpayer’s money and little or no solid research to stand on for justification of the purchase. Third, in the case of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), it isn’t ready to be sold any time soon. Why? An intelligent buying decision can hardly be made for some years until enough test hours are flown and the development of the aircraft has real tangible qualities one can point to in a fighter aircraft. Until a significant amount of maturity shows up in the F-35 program, any premature buying decision is no different than putting billions of dollars of the taxpayers money down on the roulette wheel and hoping for the best. The lack of long range aircraft buying strategy by Defence is alarming. For example, Defence is basing the defence of the nation around an aircraft, the F-35, that has little substance. Years ago, Defence made the high risk decision to cut off a valid competition composed of a variety of proven aircraft in favor of the then vaporware F-35. This decision robbed the taxpayer of value. How? This decision put the RAAF at risk. By going with what was really an unknown delivery date to anyone who knows the gestation period of new aircraft types, the RAAF would flying an aged aircraft well beyond it’s useful life: The legacy F-18 Hornet. Today, Defence is still wasting billions keeping the old F-18 around when it could have been long replaced. For example: The F-18 was never meant to be refurbished. It was meant to be flown a set amount of hours and thrown into the trash. Yet Defence has wasted almost a billion dollars trying to replace the center fuselage area of the aircraft called the center barrel. This repair is called CBR. CBR won’t return much value on the dollar. Even the U.S. Navy, who discovered CBR in a one-off event to fix a then new F-18 that got wrecked, doesn’t see enough value in the CBR process to continue it. And at this time only the U.S. Navy has the resources needed to sustain such an effort. CBR is an expensive and slow set of tasks. Canada, who also flies old F-18’s is shying away from CBR too. Not long after the ink was dry on Australia’s deal to start CBR on it’s aging F-18s, Defence had to backpedal and admit that they didn’t know how to properly manage a CBR process. Mistakes on making the old F-18 combat worthy don’t stop there. Some years ago there was the goof up of getting the right electronic defensive kit for the aircraft. After wasting money on one poorly researched vendor, Defence had to waste more money by switching vendors after the first one failed to deliver a working product . In the end the F-18 got it’s electronic defensive gear, but what does the taxpayer get in return? Money thrown into an airframe that could have been replaced long ago. Next is the F-18 Super Hornet debacle. While the Super Hornet may be good for the U.S. Navy based solely on the fact that it is the only U.S. carrier fighter in production and has a new car smell, it makes a poor fit for Australia. Even if one ignores the poor justification for getting the aircraft: A fib that the F-111 was at risk of falling apart based on a faulty fatigue test. One has to also consider other things about the Super Hornet purchase. It was done in a hurry based on little solid threat analysis and was bought on the premise of wasting supplemental taxpayer money outside of the normal Defence budget. This impulse buy, not unlike the kind for those with little restraint or children who see something tasty at the checkout counter, means that Defence has no solid grasp of how to manage a long range lifecycle plan for the kinds of combat aircraft needed to defend the nation. In the case of Australia’s involvement in the F-35 project, the amount of the hype and blind faith Defence and industry heap on the unaware t
 
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Wicked Chinchilla       8/28/2008 3:07:54 PM
I am glad you posted something so new and original: an F35 hit piece!!!  We have NEVER read something like that before...
 
 
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gf0012-aust       8/28/2008 5:48:59 PM
Eric Palmer?  ROFLMAO.
 
Maybe you should google the other rubbish he's written on the RAAF and the F-22, the Su-27 and its threat to Australia, or even just wander over to T5C and see how long he lasted in there.
 
Unmitigated wanker - one of the Kopp club.
 
The only one on F16.net that actually has a clue as to what he talks about is Dwightlooie (and the smattering of real F-22 pilots who invariably have given up in disgust)
 
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warpig       8/28/2008 7:20:19 PM

From the little bit I've read over there, I'd say it's clear that "checksixx" knows his stuff.

 
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Volkodav       8/28/2008 7:24:33 PM
One thing I do wonder about is whether we will end up paying more for less capable early block aircraft than the Nordic states will pay for later blocks because they are hedging their bets and may buy something else. 
 
I have a similar concern that our share of the manufacturing may also be less than it should because LM has sharpened their pencil to sign up wavering customers.
 
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beepa       8/28/2008 8:03:22 PM

Eric Palmer?  ROFLMAO.

 

Maybe you should google the other rubbish he's written on the RAAF and the F-22, the Su-27 and its threat to Australia, or even just wander over to T5C and see how long he lasted in there.


 

Unmitigated wanker - one of the Kopp club.

 

The only one on F16.net that actually has a clue as to what he talks about is Dwightlooie (and the smattering of real F-22 pilots who invariably have given up in disgust)



Yeah sure, I suppose your mate darth is as clueless as you say? Its so refreshing to pop in here and see all the self proclaimed experts. Must be why there are so many people lining up to post on here.
 
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DropBear       8/28/2008 11:01:11 PM
 
The thing I find amusing about journalists like this is that they write copious amounts of copy denigrating particular aircraft/platforms and write in a style as if they are the only folk who know the real truth and that the readers are nothing more than little kids, yet they don't once back up their position/argument with a valid option of their own.
 
So the Classic Bug is old and geriatric. Check.
 
So the CBR is problematic and could quickly spiral beyond budget avarice. Check.
 
So the F-35 is a low flying, range limited jet without any decent NCW kit. Check.
 
So the SuperHornet isn't very Super. Check.
 
Ok then Mr navigator Man, what platform type do YOU think we should purchase, eh?
 
Journalists = the other white meat.
 
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Volkodav       8/28/2008 11:36:59 PM
So the Classic Bug is old and geriatric. Check.
 Should have been supplemented with Night Attack F/A-18C/D during the early 90's to keep our production capabilities going.  (replacements for the F-4E in 76SQN, the RF-4E and F-4G in 79SQN and the ex RAN FAA Skyhawks in 2SQN)
 
So the CBR is problematic and could quickly spiral beyond budget avarice. Check.
A/B Bugs should have been replaced with E/F models from about 2000 with Block II's replacing F-111 from 2010
 
So the F-35 is a low flying, range limited jet without any decent NCW kit. Check.
 Perfect replacement for the C/D Bugs and there wouldn't be an issue with range if we had aquired a decent number of tankers in the 70's, 80's and / or 90's.
 
So the SuperHornet isn't very Super. Check.
Super enough when you look at what we are likely to encounter.  If things take a dramatic turn in the future, many options that weren't available in the F-111 retirement time line should / would be available then. i.e. the Russians develop and market a 5th gen fighter to the peoples republic of Fiji under chairman Frank, we could have a SQN or two of Meteor armed SH, F-35 Block 5 or 6, or refurbished F-22 in FOC before the PRF achieved IOC with their new toys.
 
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Enterpriser       8/29/2008 12:58:23 AM

So the Classic Bug is old and geriatric. Check.

 Should have been supplemented with Night Attack F/A-18C/D during the early 90's to keep our production capabilities going.  (replacements for the F-4E in 76SQN, the RF-4E and F-4G in 79SQN and the ex RAN FAA Skyhawks in 2SQN)

 

So the CBR is problematic and could quickly spiral beyond budget avarice. Check.

A/B Bugs should have been replaced with E/F models from about 2000 with Block II's replacing F-111 from 2010

 

So the F-35 is a low flying, range limited jet without any decent NCW kit. Check.

 Perfect replacement for the C/D Bugs and there wouldn't be an issue with range if we had aquired a decent number of tankers in the 70's, 80's and / or 90's.

 

So the SuperHornet isn't very Super. Check.

Super enough when you look at what we are likely to encounter.  If things take a dramatic turn in the future, many options that weren't available in the F-111 retirement time line should / would be available then. i.e. the Russians develop and market a 5th gen fighter to the peoples republic of Fiji under chairman Frank, we could have a SQN or two of Meteor armed SH, F-35 Block 5 or 6, or refurbished F-22 in FOC before the PRF achieved IOC with their new toys.



I am not sure those propositions needed to be refuted. The tone that I detected in Dropbear's post was more one of "Ticking off a checklist of inaccuracies".  Whilst it is possible that you also noted this tone, and were merely stating that you didn't agree as there were options in your mind to increase the RAAFs combat power, I note that in the timelines you describe the requisite money was not available (as it was during the time of the 108 Billion dollar Defence shortfall).
 
Brett.
Brett.
 
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Volkodav       8/29/2008 1:25:36 AM
I was bored.
 
Also I must confess to trying to divert another F-35 v F-22 v SH merry go round.
 
What did you think of my hypothetical transfer of FAA A-4's to the RAAF as well as the retention of the F-4E's instead of disbanding 76Sqn, which could have been done in the mid 70's, and the reestablishment of 79Sqn with RF-4 and weasels which would have occured instead of buying surplus F-111A's and recc pods.
 
No malice intended, just playing to make a done to death topic more interesting. 
 
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gf0012-aust       8/29/2008 3:41:36 AM

Yeah sure, I suppose your mate darth is as clueless as you say? Its so refreshing to pop in here and see all the self proclaimed experts. Must be why there are so many people lining up to post on here.


1) whats darth got to do with this post?
2) darth and I have had many many disagreements on here - and we've had a few agreements as well, so whats your point?
3) have you read any of ELP's other missives?  I'm sure one of the others is going to post his rubbish from SMH on here (or you could search for it)
4)  Ever since I had my job change I say relatively nought on here re Def issues.  We get a DEFGRAM or Sec Message every week reminding us that it's a potential offence to say anything in the open press.  I kind of take that seriously.
5) Never stated that I'm an expert - and I clearly know my limitations.  I also know when some are speaking rubbish.
 
If you want to believe that crap then go for your life - but I suggest that you graze through some of his other nonsense on other forums and pause a bit before considering him an expert.  (The bit about how he is a pilot will crack you up when you discover what kind of "pilot" he is)
 
Or, you could wait a while for those who do know what they're on about to pass comment. (Try T5C where there are at least 3 military/def industry journo's regularly on the Boards.)
 
In the end it's up to you, and I have no intention of trying to convert your belief system if you thinks his comments are sustainable and based on the facts.
 
 
 
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