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Subject: Latest developments on land 17, Land 121, land 40 phase 2
1stcohort3    9/3/2008 11:42:51 PM
Hi lads, -What the latest on Land 17. Does anyone have any hints as to what might be selected. Its taking awfully long, and i cant deal with the suspense. -Also what vehicles have been selected for 121? -On the DMO website, it said trials had commenced in 2008 for a DFSW, any idea what likely candidates there are.
 
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ArtyEngineer       9/3/2008 11:52:06 PM
You guys are getting M777A2's for almost absolutely certain ;).  Quantity equal or les than 57 I think the numbe rwas.
Id bet a body part you will get PzH2000 also.  Several reasons for this surety.  BAE (Maker of the almost certainly selected M777) are in partnership with KMW and are already in the process of building some sort of support/maintenance centre i believe.
 
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1stcohort3       9/4/2008 2:14:27 AM
^^If that's the case, I would not have had it any other way :)
 
Any news on overlander and DFSW?

 
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1stcohort3       9/4/2008 2:16:45 AM
"An Australian government request to the US DSCA for 57 M777A2s has recently been made, worth $248m"
 
According to wiki (I know its wiki but hey). How many 2000's we looking at?
 
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Arty Farty       9/4/2008 9:58:43 PM
Wasn't there talk of the new 7.62mm Minimi for DFSW to replace F89s? (can't recall where I heard this) The MAG 58 has been used widely in A'stan, guess it like going back to the M60.
 
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Volkodav       9/5/2008 5:52:55 AM
I hope its 'supplement the F-89' and not replace.
 
As to a return to the M-60 ...... the worst infantry weapon I ever fired or took on exercise.....there is a very good reason that the MAG 58 was bought and that some RAR Btn's started using Brens again while waiting for the F-89.  A heavy or old gun that works beats one that doesn't every time.
 
The advantage of the MAG 58 in Afghanistan is it's greater effective range and hitting power is very useful in the prevailing terrain.  It's length and weight, I imaging, would be a pain for the users. 
 
From Army Technology.com.au

MINIMI? 7.62 MACHINE GUN

FN HERSTAL recently launched the MINIMI? 7.62 x 51mm lightweight machine gun, to fulfil a growing worldwide requirement for a machine gun which provides the power of 7.62 ammunition in a 5.56 weight machine gun.

MINIMI? 5.56 and 7.62 machine guns have most parts in common, and similar ergonomics. A MINIMI? 5.56 machine gun user therefore needs no extra training to utilise the MINIMI? 7.62 machine gun.

The MINIMI? 7.62 machine gun is equipped with a medium barrel (longer than the MINIMI? 5.56 machine gun and shorter than the MAG 7.62 machine gun).

The MINIMI? 7.62 machine gun weighs less than 1kg more than the MINIMI? 5.56 machine gun, and approximately 4kg less than the MAG 7.62 machine gun.

ADVANTAGE OF THE MINIMI? 7.62 MACHINE-GUN

The MINIMI? 5.56 machine gun is used as a light support weapon and requires the user to carry the weapon and at least 600 rounds, while the MAG 7.62 machine gun is the ideal medium machine gun for tripods or being mounted on vehicles, but is heavy for any role requiring the user to carry it.

The MINIMI? 7.62 machine gun is a perfect compromise, providing the power of 7.62 ammunition in a machine gun of 5.56 weight.

 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       9/5/2008 8:53:29 AM

Hi lads,

-What the latest on Land 17. Does anyone have any hints as to what might be selected. Its taking awfully long, and i cant deal with the suspense.

-Also what vehicles have been selected for 121?

-On the DMO website, it said trials had commenced in 2008 for a DFSW, any idea what likely candidates there are.

1. I posted about 3 weeks ago what is happening with Land 40 Phase 2. But here it is again...
 
The General Dynamics Mk 47 40mm AGL and the Heckler and Koch Grenade Machine Gun (GMG) are the Land 40 Phase 2 short listed weapons. According to ADM, the firing trials for these weapons are complete and the users (as usual) prefer the H&K ghat, but prefer the fire control system of the General Dynamics weapon... I guess it'll depend on price in the end... :)

Here are the guns anyway:

h**p://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl23-e.htm

h**p://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl21-e.htm


I expect a final recommendation will be put to Government shortly, but don't hold your breath with the White Paper due in less than 6 months, I expect NO major capability announcements prior to that. 


As to LAND 17, Defence HAVE confirmed that additional M-777A2 155mm guns were requested because they want to provide an expanded number of options to Government for our artillery replacement. Defence ALSO confirmed that an SPG still remains their top priority, however Government might feel differently...
 
 
Once again, don't expect anything prior to the White Paper. 
 
As to land 121, most of it is proceeding as previously announced, however the short-listed "medium and heavy" vehicles have failed some parts of their testing and hence that portion of Land 121 are going to be re-let. Basically the FMTV vehicles aren't proving up to scratch as far as Defence is concerned...
 
 

 
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ArtyEngineer    AD Mk2   9/5/2008 11:34:01 AM
Any details on the issues with the FMTV's.  They are a decent family of vehicles, however I much prefer the Oskosh "Beast" the MTVR!!!
 
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk297/M777A2/FMTV%20and%20MTVR/5-25-07Firing004.jpg" width="500" border="0" />
Up-Armoured
 
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk297/M777A2/FMTV%20and%20MTVR/Lejeune004.jpg" width="500" border="0" />
Or Regular.
 
Was the MTVR family in consideration at all, or were the too big and were never a realistic consideration?
 
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1stcohort3       9/5/2008 11:28:58 PM
What will happen to the m198s and L119s
 
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Aussie Diggermark 2    Are: Artyengineer   9/6/2008 1:58:42 AM
They are not proving robust enough, of all things...
 
They were chosen "off paper" and once selected and Australian forces started copping IED hits overseas, the project managers realised survivability enhancement kits (SEK's) would be needed to use these things on a modern battlefield... 
 
They then procured some, tested them with the SEK of choice and axles started breaking etc...
 
Plus they wanted an 8x8 version that has never before been produced by the company (probably for recovery operations I guess) and therefore has inherent risk attached and the new Government has said, "enough of that" quite loudly in recent times and therefore the vehicle had to be cancelled. They decided then to cancel the entire section of LAND 121 that relates to "medium" vehicles, the "light" (G-Wagen) and heavy (new Mack's I believe) are continuing as before. 
 
It looks like a rival MAN product that was originally dismissed, might get a leg up afterall in the "medium" vehicle section...
 
A more interesting vehicle to be chosen is the "light" command, utility and recon vehicles that are to be acquired. Something along the lines of the Eagle IV I'm thinking would be very nice... With $1.5b to spend on that phase alone, we should be able to get a fair number of them...
 
 
 

 
 
 

 
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Volkodav       9/6/2008 4:31:23 AM
A more interesting vehicle to be chosen is the "light" command, utility and recon vehicles that are to be acquired. Something along the lines of the Eagle IV I'm thinking would be very nice... With $1.5b to spend on that phase alone, we should be able to get a fair number of them...
 
There are some very ineresting vehicles currently, or soon to be available in this class.  I bet the various Light Horse Units are waiting with baited breath.
 
Heres one I find particularly interesting.
 
AMPV
Krauss-Maffei Wegmann of Munich and Rheinmetall Defence of Düsseldorf have launched a joint programme to develop a highly protected new vehicle family in the 5 to 9 ton weight class. The first of the four-wheel drive Armoured Multipurpose Vehicle (AMPV) systems should be ready for serial delivery by 2011. A life-size mock-up of the vehicle is on show at Eurosatory 2008 for the first time. Completion of the first prototype is planned for 2009.
Responding to the Bundeswehr?s current GFF (?protected command and role-specific vehicle?) procurement programme, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Rheinmetall have decided to develop a family of GFF 1/2-class vehicles which will fully comply with user requirements. The two defence contractors are financing the development project on their own.

The objective of the joint project is to supply the armed forces of Germany and other nations with a vehicle that sets an entirely new standard for mobility, modularity and protection technology; and to safeguard and promote certain technologies vital to German national security.

AMPV VEHICLE FAMILY
The vehicle family encompasses two type series. The agile AMPV 1 is the smaller of the two, and makes an ideal liaison vehicle. A higher level of protection and a heavier payload are the primary characteristics of the bigger AMPV 2. However, the entire vehicle family is based on standardized engineering principles and technologies.

Both type series feature a patrol vehicle with an unprotected floor in the rear section, and an equipment kit carrier with a safety cell extending all the way to the rear of the vehicle.
Also planned is a special patrol version of the AMPV1 that can be airlifted in a CH53 transport helicopter.

PROTECTION AND MOBILITY ARE THE DRIVING FORCES BEHIND THE AMPV
Two of the world?s best-known suppliers of land systems, KMW and Rheinmetall both bring extensive experience from previous programmes to the AMPV development project.

The highly protected vehicle cell is an autonomous armoured steel structure with a spoor liner, while the reinforced undercarriage and reinforced cell stru
 
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