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Subject: Opposition defends Joint Strike Fighter over simulated dogfights
Enterpriser    9/11/2008 1:17:57 AM
September 11, 2008 THE federal Opposition has dismissed new doubts about the multi-billion dollar Joint Strike Fighter project and the jet's performance. The JSF jets, for which Australia is likely to pay $16 billion, were comprehensively beaten in highly classified simulated dogfights against Russian Sukhoi fighters, it has been reported. The war games, conducted at Hawaii's Hickam airbase last month, were witnessed by at least four RAAF personnel and a member of Australia's peak military spy agency, the Defence Intelligence Organisation, The West Australian said. Opposition defence spokesman Nick Minchin said he was taking "with a grain of salt" the validity of the report. "This is based on a computer game, computer modelling of the aircraft," he told Sky News. "This is not real life." Senator Minchin said he had a classified briefing on the JSF from its US manufacturer Lockheed-Martin which had promoted the aircraft as the most advanced jet fighter ever. "I can't really say much about it, but this is a phenomenal aircraft. "As our chief of defence Angus Houston has said this is a most extraordinary aircraft, it is the right aircraft for Australia." The multi-purpose fighter would be the backbone of the United States military, Senator Minchin said. "We are fortunate to be in it and the government should move to make the decision to acquire it." WA Liberal backbencher Dennis Jensen said he had spoken to a third party with knowledge of the final classified test results who had claimed the JSF had been clubbed like baby seals by the simulated Sukhois, The West Australian reported. He said the government should demand that the US Government sell it the F-22 which was already in operation instead of the JSF. A response was been sought from the government. What do you all think? (playing into APA hands, etc?) Brett.
 
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gf0012-aust       9/11/2008 3:20:31 AM


What do you all think? (playing into APA hands, etc?)

Brett.

Good grief - have a look at jensens contribution to the standing committee last year - he, crisp and kopp made claims that were abject nonsense.
 
more importantly, look at jensens background.  he self promotes as having a military background through his parliamentary  work.
 
he's another one of those blokes who has not been even remotely exposed to actual capability data and seems to think that water cooler chats (how convenient) have substance.
 
 
I've not been a fan of the JSF in the past due to a number of  reasons, but the capability is not one of them.
 
jensen demonstrates no understanding at all of how and why sim'd air power exercises are conducted,  he's also apparently completely oblivious of the sim data that RAAF has on russian aircraft against JSF.
 
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Gecko       9/11/2008 4:54:43 AM





What do you all think? (playing into APA hands, etc?)




Brett.





Good grief - have a look at jensens contribution to the standing committee last year - he, crisp and kopp made claims that were abject nonsense.

 

more importantly, look at jensens background.  he self promotes as having a military background through his parliamentary  work.


 

he's another one of those blokes who has not been even remotely exposed to actual capability data and seems to think that water cooler chats (how convenient) have substance.


 

 

I've not been a fan of the JSF in the past due to a number of  reasons, but the capability is not one of them.


 

jensen demonstrates no understanding at all of how and why sim'd air power exercises are conducted,  he's also apparently completely oblivious of the sim data that RAAF has on russian aircraft against JSF.


I was just going to comment seems like APA is the source! Now I know he is affiliated with them, I wonder if this source he talks about is actually is real or why they would talk to him in the first place.

 
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gf0012-aust       9/11/2008 6:08:44 AM

just to add some extra insight into this. a comment from a professional defence sector journalist...
 
h!!p://www.t5c.biz/showthread.php?t=7923
 
 

 
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Volkodav       9/11/2008 9:08:34 AM
The trouble is there are an awful lot of people out there who believe they know more about classified programs than the people who actually work on them.  Then of course the people in the know are not able to comment, it real can do your head in.
 
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hairy man       9/11/2008 8:05:30 PM
I have a lot of time for Nick Minchin, he appears to be one of the more genuine politicians that we have.  But comments like this, "Senator Minchin said he had a classified briefing on the JSF from its US manufacturer Lockheed-Martin which had promoted the aircraft as the most advanced jet fighter ever."    Fair dinkum, are you going to take any notice if Ford Motor Company say "The new model Falcon is the most advanced motor car ever"  I would like to see what independent people have to say, but that wont be for a while until after the JSF gets into service. 
 
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gf0012-aust       9/11/2008 10:21:35 PM

I have a lot of time for Nick Minchin, he appears to be one of the more genuine politicians that we have.  But comments like this, "Senator Minchin said he had a classified briefing on the JSF from its US manufacturer Lockheed-Martin which had promoted the aircraft as the most advanced jet fighter ever."    Fair dinkum, are you going to take any notice if Ford Motor Company say "The new model Falcon is the most advanced motor car ever"  I would like to see what independent people have to say, but that wont be for a while until after the JSF gets into service. 

I'd accept the spirit of your comment as relevant (re self promotion issues) - but, Minchin would have had access to classified briefings via his presence at NSC where JSF has been a discussion item.
 
So, yes, he has had access to privileged documents.  They would not have been manufacturers docs though - and I suspect that he's not silly enough to say in public what he was actually able to view as that would put him under the gun.
 
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cwDeici       9/13/2008 2:30:08 AM
The US of A by my opinion (Norwegian, Hong Kong Chinese, International, Western, Christian) will not sell its much lubb0red fighter to a decadent libertine ally like Australia. It'd be like selling advanced weapons to Germans who hate all their allies but not themselves.
 
Either way, the JSF suxx0rs. If you really wanna spend money get an F-35 or a Typhoon, anything else is like building up against China's CURRENT air force of F-16 clones which is churning out new designs every three years... improving quickly in Asian terms.
 
Buying the JSF is pork-barrelling your money on a research tree several steps behind the curve at best.
'Nuff said.

 
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cwDeici       9/13/2008 2:31:37 AM
Let's not forget (I did) my main argument. Australian's hate wars unless they take their time to read about them, even if they know how to defend themselves, and then it's got to be darn close. Unless Australia gets involved in a war the US won't bother giving them lovely toys.
 
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gf0012-aust       9/13/2008 3:24:28 AM

The US of A by my opinion (Norwegian, Hong Kong Chinese, International, Western, Christian) will not sell its much lubb0red fighter to a decadent libertine ally like Australia. It'd be like selling advanced weapons to Germans who hate all their allies but not themselves.

Either way, the JSF suxx0rs. If you really wanna spend money get an F-35 or a Typhoon, anything else is like building up against China's CURRENT air force of F-16 clones which is churning out new designs every three years... improving quickly in Asian terms.


Buying the JSF is pork-barrelling your money on a research tree several steps behind the curve at best.


'Nuff said.



"The US of A by my opinion (Norwegian, Hong Kong Chinese, International, Western, Christian)" - what in heavens name are you smoking to even sprout this nonsense?
 
The JSF and F-35 are the same aircraft you moron.  Make the effort to at least understand the subject matter.
 
and seeing that you are now the self professed miltech genius - point out what ground breaking (or any breaking) new chinese combat aircraft have been rolled out every 3 years?
 
Nuff said. (bye bye troll)
 
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