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Subject: Defence to buy equipment off the shelf - Oh dear
Volkodav    12/12/2009 8:21:05 AM
Cameron Stewart From: The Australian December 12, 2009 12:00AM Add to DiggAdd to del.icio.usAdd to FacebookAdd to KwoffAdd to MyspaceAdd to NewsvineWhat are these?AUSTRALIA will buy a growing proportion of its military equipment ready-made from overseas as a way of ensuring that multi-billion dollar purchases are delivered on time and on budget, according to Defence secretary Ian Watt. Dr Watt said recent success stories such as the trouble-free purchase of C-17 heavy airlifter aircraft and Abrams tanks from the US had convinced Defence that so-called off-the-shelf military purchases from overseas were a viable, cost-effective way of funding future Defence capability. "I think there is a greater appreciation of the benefits of off-the-shelf (purchases)," he told The Weekend Australian in his first interview since becoming Defence secretary on August 31. "We didn't have off-the-shelf success stories (in the past) but now we do,' he said. Dr Watt's comments confirm a steady sea-change in Defence thinking away from Australian-based programs such as the failed modifications to the navy's Seasprite helicopters which forced the government to write off the entire $1.2 billion project. However, greater emphasis on overseas purchases is likely to alarm the nation's $5bn defence industry which is hoping to reap lucrative contracts from the $100bn-plus defence equipment program outlined in this year's Defence white paper. "There is a concern (in the defence industry) to the extent that you don't want a mindset in the defence bureaucracy that automatically buys off the shelf," said John O'Callaghan, executive officer of the peak defence industry body, the Australian Industry Group Defence Council. "You want careful analysis of the reasons for buying off the shelf and the costs and benefits of doing so." Dr Watt said the decision to buy off-the-shelf military equipment would be made on a case-by-case basis, but he would like to see the balance tilt towards buying ready-made equipment from overseas. "The issue we have as an organisation is, yes, to make more use of off the shelf, but some things you can get off the shelf and some things you can't.' Defence has traditionally found itself facing the greatest blowout in costs when it invests in development defence projects, such as the F-111 strike bomber in the 1960s, the Collins Class submarine project in the 1980s, and the current Joint Strike Fighter project and Wedgetail early warning aircraft projects which are both late and over budget. Although the government has said it will construct the next generation of submarines in Australia, it is unclear how much Australian input there will be to the design, weaponry, communication and combat systems of the new boats. The decision to build the Collins Class submarines from scratch resulted in a sub-standard combat system, unreliable main engines, noisy machinery, cracked propeller blades, poor communications and a problem-plagued periscope. Dr Watt said the $2bn C-17 purchase and the $500 million Abrams tanks order, which were both delivered on time and on budget, had convinced Defence it could buy off the shelf successfully. "Replicate these and the balance shifts," he said. "(The debate) becomes, `why wouldn't you buy off the shelf?" ________________________________________________________________ MOTS can suffer from all the same issues indiginous projects as well as their own unique problems. The biggest issue I see is true MOTS often fails to meet the ADF's requirements and also is approaching obsolescents as it enters service with the ADF. Add to this TLS, design authority and intra operabilty issues and you can see it is all far from black and white.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/12/2009 6:54:09 PM
It would be useful if he actually spoke to some other people if he thinks that the C-17 purchase hasn't caused problems.
Someone in the RAAF is telling porkies to the DefSec.

he should probably talk to his counterpart in the diarchy before talking to the likes of cameron stewart

"Replicate these and the balance shifts," he said. "(The debate) becomes, `why wouldn't you buy off the shelf?" 

thats just dumbing it down too much.  there are a number of reasons why you can't go COTs - in fact if they they want to save some of the fiscal bleed they'd be killing off some of the COTS progs that the vendors have suckered senior sirs and senior suits with in "death by powerpoint".

The TLS for COTS is great for the vendors, but it costs an arm and a leg when we don't necessarily need to travel that road.

in addition, if he wants to go to COTS then it will be more expensive in the long run due to interoperability and certification issues.

all in moderation.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       12/12/2009 7:29:19 PM

It would be useful if he actually spoke to some other people if he thinks that the C-17 purchase hasn't caused problems.
Someone in the RAAF is telling porkies to the DefSec.

He said that they were delivered on time and on budget, not that there weren't any technical problems with the purchase. Any complex defence purchase is likely to have a few issues but its a matter of how big the issues are. Compare recent COT purchases like the C-17 versus the likes of the Collins Class or the Sea Sprites and the outcomes become chalk and cheese.
 
In any case, Watt knows what he is talking about. He was a successful Secretary for the Department of Finance for years and would have seen all of the various success stories and cock ups from the perspective of the people who have to manage the Commonwealth budget. If he says that MOTS and COTS is generally going to give better value for money then I believe him.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/12/2009 8:19:03 PM
oh good grief.

one of the primary reasons for buying the C-17's can't be done at this point in time and withi n the current cost allocation because RAAF raced through the purchase and didn't crunch up other numbers.

the boss wanted these for dual roles - and his priority for ticking them off was civil mission support.  not only can't we not do iy for the civil mssions (yet) but also their parallel military role.

of couse watts would know that wouldn't he.  but lets have a feelgood story over ride the absolute reality of what has actually transpired.

Rapid acquisitions will ferk up just as much as Phased projects, esp when some muppet hasn't done the through life and all the engineering costs for a lot of the missions we planned for,.

the C-17's were rushed through because everyone saw it as a good time to maximise the goodwill and slips that Cosgrove had with the Govt of the day.  subsequently RAAF in their enthusiasm to get these assets through with Armys goodwill forgot to do some basics - and the costs of some of those C17 ferk ups are impacting on other projects.

if he wanted to quote a relative success story then its the SHornets - and thats mainly because RAAF aren't allowed to screw around with the requirements

If you want to spruik peoles bckground and quals then Volkodav could give you some of his own corporate stories.... and at 3 times the salary of the DefSec
 
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gf0012-aust       12/12/2009 8:25:33 PM
 He was a successful Secretary for the Department of Finance for years and would have seen all of the various success stories and cock ups from the perspective of the people who have to manage the Commonwealth budget
pity DOFD can't get their head around various bits of Proj 8001 and how they're ferking up their understanding of how cost benefit to the Co9A is realised
Lets hope he can call his old buddies and give them some hints then.  
that way the NSC can also start to see what the impacts are.

 
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gf0012-aust       12/12/2009 8:28:12 PM
.... or the Sea Sprites and the outcomes become chalk and cheese.

 excellent - so you're aware of how DOFD helped screw that pooch then?  Its good to see that they've been outed for their own contribution to that whole sorry episode
 
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Aussiegunneragain       12/12/2009 8:52:54 PM
It amuses me the way that people who are embedded in the Defence establishment are so quick to critisise new leadership that has the responsibilty for cleaning up the mess, yet still manage to deliver outrageously screwed up projects on a  regular basis and deliver no solutions, whilst blaming somebody else. It just smacks of the words of people who have a fiduciary interest in this appalling ongoing waste of taxpayers money.  
 
As for Volkodav knowing a few Australian defence industry people who earn more than Watt, I'm unimpressed. The likes of Watt don't join the public service to maximise their earning potential  and the salaries of those industry monkeys are likely to be more to do with their ability to milk the sacred cow of defence expenditure, than it does to do with their ability to deliver good equipment on time and on budget.
 
As far as I'm concerned Falkner and Watt should start Defence Reform with the premise that any credibility that people in the Defence estabishment (uniformed, APS and industry) who don't have a track record of delivering results have zero credibility and have to earn it starting now. That's if they don't go through the place like a dose of salts first and I personally would have no problem with seeing a lot of the resulting smelly matter flushed. Too much of our hard earned money has been wasted by these leeches, so as far as I'm concerned they should perform or be sacked if they work for the Gvernment, or be given no further contracts if they are in industry.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       12/12/2009 8:57:12 PM
It amuses me the way that people who are embedded in the Defence establishment are so quick to critisise new leadership that has the responsibilty for cleaning up the mess, yet still manage to deliver outrageously screwed up projects on a  regular basis and deliver no solutions, whilst blaming somebody else. It just smacks of the words of people who have a fiduciary interest in this appalling ongoing waste of taxpayers money.  
 
As for Volkodav knowing a few Australian defence industry people who earn more than Watt, I'm unimpressed. The likes of Watt don't join the public service to maximise their earning potential  and the salaries of those industry monkeys are likely to be more to do with their ability to milk the sacred cow of defence expenditure, than it does to do with their ability to deliver good equipment on time and on budget.
 
As far as I'm concerned Falkner and Watt should start Defence Reform with the premise that any credibility that people in the Defence estabishment (uniformed, APS and industry) who don't have a track record of delivering results have zero credibility and have to earn it starting now. That's if they don't go through the place like a dose of salts first and I personally would have no problem with seeing a lot of the resulting smelly matter flushed. Too much of our hard earned money has been wasted by these leeches, so as far as I'm concerned they should perform or be sacked if they work for the Gvernment, or be given no further contracts if they are in industry.
 
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Volkodav       12/12/2009 10:00:32 PM
Where it is the best fit for the ADF's capability I have no issue with MOTS or COTS solutions.  The problem is when you have to make do with not quite near enough because the MOTS / COTS solution, while (possibly) less expensive  to acquire, either can't do what is needed, or isn't available due to logistics issues.
 
The thing to remember with MOTS is the parent service is (usually) significantly larger than the ADF and has a wide range of suporting assets and infrastructure we don't have or can't afford.  This means we often can't get the same value out of a given asset as its parent service does.  Think operating F-111 without tankers etc.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/12/2009 10:20:35 PM

It amuses me the way that people who are embedded in the Defence establishment are so quick to critisise new leadership that has the responsibilty for cleaning up the mess, yet still manage to deliver outrageously screwed up projects on a  regular basis and deliver no solutions, whilst blaming somebody else. It just smacks of the words of people who have a fiduciary interest in this appalling ongoing waste of taxpayers money.  

it amuses me no end how some people think that they actually have an indepth awareness of some of the programs thve have gone off the rails - and who caused it.  

As for Volkodav knowing a few Australian defence industry people who earn more than Watt, I'm unimpressed. The likes of Watt don't join the public service to maximise their earning potential  and the salaries of those industry monkeys are likely to be more to do with their ability to milk the sacred cow of defence expenditure, than it does to do with their ability to deliver good equipment on time and on budget.

 oh my extrapolatione extraordinaire - sacred cow?  who thinks its a sacred cow?  I have an issue with muppets who wax lyrical on things that they don't have actual insight into.  me, I've worked all sides so I've seen it all from all sides.  that at least gives me some knowledge base to work from.

As far as I'm concerned Falkner and Watt should start Defence Reform with the premise that any credibility that people in the Defence estabishment (uniformed, APS and industry) who don't have a track record of delivering results have zero credibility and have to earn it starting now. That's if they don't go through the place like a dose of salts first and I personally would have no problem with seeing a lot of the resulting smelly matter flushed. Too much of our hard earned money has been wasted by these leeches, so as far as I'm concerned they should perform or be sacked if they work for the Gvernment, or be given no further contracts if they are in industry.

Me, I'd sack a few more, and I'd vet the credentials of those who sit at the "n" pass decision level
There's a few sacked already.  Last year approx 213.  But you knew that already hey?
 
BTW, can we start with some of the ministers and their staffers who ticked decisions in spite of reccomendations from DOFD and the NSC,  that way we wouldn't sack people down below who couldn't influence the outcomes.
 
Its good to be oh so confident of who caused the ferk ups.  I've got no probs sacking anyone who can't perform, just like I could when on the outside.  But, lets start at the top and look at the decision making and approval process before we happily go off and crucify jumior staffers and uniforms who get painted by association - and usually by people who have no ferking idea of what processes they are bound by, and hpw the approval process involves up to 6 different organisations - and that the process has been established by Cabinet. (and Watt will have to work to the same processes that Cabinet has imposed on us all)
 
or do you want to have a guy gawkes event to short circuit it all?


 
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gf0012-aust       12/12/2009 11:10:47 PM

Where it is the best fit for the ADF's capability I have no issue with MOTS or COTS solutions.  The problem is when you have to make do with not quite near enough because the MOTS / COTS solution, while (possibly) less expensive  to acquire, either can't do what is needed, or isn't available due to logistics issues.

 

agreed.  the problem being  that in the end state, nearly all major capital systems have a MOTS end state for certification reasons.  Hence, the throw away line that COTS is preferable over MOTS ignores the end state reality.  We either change fundamentals such as international access, security, interagency access, security etc or we recognise that its is like any other element - ie it has a degree of risk that needs not only consideration, but acceptance if we are to maintain its integrity not only discretely, but at the overa;; warfighting systems state.
 
There is another issue with COTS that can't be ignored - esp at the international information sharing, weapons sharing level.  is that we are to maintain interoperability with some principle allies, then we cannot use a COTS solution as they won't certifiy it at their end.  Bang goes interoperability, bang goes info sharing, bang goes data exchange integrity etc.  At an ewarfare level, if you cannot maintain systems integrity and sharing at a trackable level all the way through the food chain, then you can't and won;t be allowed to connect and play with other forces.
 
at the warship level you can do somethings, but you cannot build a sub to norde veritas or llods commercial standards -
because it doesn't exist.  to see how things can go pear shaped have a look at the kiwis problems with going to merchant standards on their new provisioners.  look nice, nice in prinicple, but an absolute nightmare in waiting (as they are slowly discovering)/  the poms have found the same problems with thir own LLoyds quality warfighters.  Nice idea which has not translated to warfighting integrity levels
 
the other thing that pi$$es me off with these "debates" is because the COTS argument will get thrown up as though its never been considered with any serious intent - we've been using COTS for over 12 years where we can - and when I was in industry we offered COTS/MOTS equivalency wherever possible.  eg ALCATEL has a Euro cabling standard which is similar to US milspec.  Bottomline, though is if things don't comply with other US standards, then they can't be connected.
 
COTS is not a panacea to procurement ills.  Its ironic that defence procurement is pilloried in australia and yet ashton carter is coming to australia to look at how we do things as the yanks think that its a better model rather than their current fixed price, USG risk bearing model.
 
go figure.  Procurement in aust has changed in the last 2 years, and it still needs refining.  but, eg using Kinnaird processes for ewarfare and ITC projects is dumber than teaching a pig to play a harp
 
 
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